French Knapsacks

[Mcouioui]

Here is what says to me, Paco a collector of French equipments second empire over the forum of the CCFF.

Concerning the French Knapsacks, the statutory models are all in "hairs", brown
for "la ligne" black for "les chasseurs" (those who interest us) and
"Les Zouaves".
The only ones to have no hairs are the models said about "Godillot" because
made by him, but it seems to me that they do not appear before the end of second
empire that is on 1867 to the reform of the “Garde nationale”.
They are typical of 1870. They seem to me too premature for 1861.
I am nevertheless verify on my documentation…
The bag shown in the first one, is not French for me.
Or then it is a national guard. I examined him in reality because he is
to sell this summer at a trader of Salon de Provence (South of France).
Leathers are too fine and not statutory, borders were strengthened with
”bedbugs” (French name for the Small nail)!!!
He misses effectively all his hairs. He was also on the web site
of this trader. If it is a delivery in the USA, Then "Godillot" really sent
”Big shit” to the Americans!!!
Concerning the reproduction of bags in black oilcloth, it is necessary to note
that the French bags are in painting by the soldier has to polish he
even in black. In no cases they are in oilcloth of origin.
The aspect is thus in no way as US. They are more mast. If my digital works one day :( I shall show you a bag 1844 of marines which is the twin of that
of the "Chasseur" but of which leather are in white buffalo.
And a 1877 which is the same that the 1852 (in two details) totally leather and
painting cloth just for the aspect outside.

Kind regards.

PS: To return on the descriptions of the uniform "Chasseurs" the green plume is in plume of peacock and serves for the ceremonial and Dress parade of "Chasseurs à pied" until 1914!

[Mcouioui]

Re: French Knapsacks

«Second Empire Chasseurs » French web site

http://www.military-photos.com/chassap.htm

83d Pennsylvania

http://www.83dpvi.org/Images/barnett.GIF

http://www.83dpvi.org/Images/unid_chas.GIF

62d Pennsylvania

http://www.ithaca.edu/staff/jhenderson/pa62d/killmer.jpg

http://www.ithaca.edu/library/training/graphics/seager.jpg

http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~jw3u/Hays.jpg

http://www.ithaca.edu/library/training/graphics/chasseur.jpg

[elcid01]

Re: French Knapsacks

Joe, William;

Great discussion and this does look at a couple new topics about equipage. Research teaches us to ensure proper documentation on the topics and with all the information provided in various websites/ publications there is alot of questions left to be asked and furthermore answered. thank you again for your insite, and great to have a link to knowledge from accross the pond!

Joe, I have your $2.... click, click, click..

Cheers

[Mcouioui]

Re: French Knapsacks

Nothing skip, your welcome, you have 1000 times right to have asked for the primary sources, because, effectively, even if we can find many secondary sources, Web site, publications, photos, diary, etc. All these secondary sources are that accompanied very rarely with their primary sources and it is pity.
Thanks to you to have steered us on the subject and forced to “go out of our chairs” to find information on the subject, your initiative was for me rewarding, " a kick in bottom " as we say in French, I said myself " Ah! He wants sources, go, go William, look " it is what fascinating in the historic research, that allied with the heart and feeling.

And I still look for primary sources...

Kind regards.

William

[Mcouioui]

Re: French Knapsacks

Says Rougeaud,

To return to the bag in question there, for me it is indeed of Garde Nationale, certainly sold as I had said it in the lot of equipments to make the number, the Garde Nationale received heaps of equipments "ersatz" well before the law Niel ( Cartridge Box with flap leather nailed on one wooden casket, helmet for the cavalry makes with miscellaneous details of reform, bag has back aspect hair, etc.)

In the Garde nationale, it is necessary to make some distinctive:
1-the Garde nationale home-body, heir of the militias of the revolution.
2-the Garde nationale police, the creation of the law Niel.
3-the Garde nationale mobilized, arisen from the urgency of the situation in 1870.


Some precision on texts concerning the Garde nationale and that reactivation.
The Garde nationale had been dismissed by Charles X continuation has an increasing hostility to him, it is the law of June 13th, 1851 that restores him life on the paper, it is necessary to wait for the decree of January 11th, 1852.

So that it is followed by effect on the ground, every department having battalions and companies " in the villages where the competition of that this will be considered necessary " (news paper “Le Moniteur” of January 12th, 1852), for many they will be companies of fire brigades the utility of which made no doubt.
The law of February 1st, 1868. Said law of the Maréchal Niel which was the inspirator, concern all the defence with the creation of the Garde Nationale formed by people having to pull good numbers or having to pay the replacement for the military service.
As example a subject which I know well, the Garde Nationale of swore, company of Lons Saunier which possessed two magnificent details of 6 An XI which had been melted in 1813 has Strasbourg and answered the given names of "Le Tessalien" and "le Brasidas"

Concerning Godillot, he was official supplier of the army since the campaign of Crimea, had several factories using thousands of workers, but has the sight of his catalog where have him find of everything even weapons.
It is indisputable that everything did not take out Godillot factories and that he had to supply it at sous treating with miscellaneous qualities of manufacturings according to the means of the buyers except French army.

Now here is has me reflection on the subject bag, which engages only me.
Seen the large order made by the USA, he has of to rake far to supply especially equipments, seen the price and the difficulties of supplies of period for the tanned skins, it is certainly steered towards the solution of the manufacturing ersatz painting cloth.
And the repurchase of surpluses intended among others is given Garde Nationale or has the export.
What would explain the presence of corresponding, repaired, transformed detail, etc. It is necessary to be as well conscious as in the period nothing threw it, every end of fabric or leather was used.
Example in the collection of a friend jacket of Grenadier de la garde second Empire, stamped and received makes multiple fragments of blue sheet, bonnet a poil idem, with falls and it is of the Garde)

[joey12thga]

Re: French Knapsacks

Ok this just kind of struck me sense there was reference to some of the French pattern knapsacks having Veal hair on them. Might just be comparing apples and oranges though.

BTW I got this reference from someone's previous post on the A.C.

Robert Knox Sneden, “Eye of the Storm”, P 99
1st week of July, 1862, right after the battle of Malvern Hill, describing a large group of Confederate prisoners from MaGruder’s Division

“ Nearly all the captured prisoners carried one canteen of whiskey and another of gunpowder. Their fixed ammunition had given out, and the rank and file had to make their own cartridges at night and during the lulls in the fighting……. The prisoners were dressed in homespun clothes, some with jackets, others in long coats, like farmers. Their trousers were of dark jean, and were stuffed into heavy boots, much worn, and very muddy. The boots never were cleaned, and the leather could not be determined for the coatings of red mud. Some had brass or white metal buttons, while others were of stamped leather. A strip of blue braid on cuff and collar denoted infantry, while red braid was for artillerymen. A dirty slouch hat, and yet dirtier blanket of a mud color, and coarse texture made the dress of the Rebel soldier. All their knapsacks had been thrown down before they charged our lines, and the prisoners were now deploring their loss. Others had knapsacks and pouches (Haversacks?) made of ox hide, with the hair outside. Officers were dressed nearly the same as the men, with the exception of a sword belt and feather in hat.”

MaGruder’s division was composed of two brigades, Cobb’s and Griffith’s.
Cobb's Brigade:
Brigadier General Howell Cobb
16th Georgia Infantry
24th Georgia Infantry
Cobb's (Georgia) Legion (Minus Cavalry)
2nd Louisiana Infantry
17th Mississippi Infantry
15th North Carolina Infantry
Morris Louisa (Virginia) Artillery
Griffith's Brigade:
Brigadier General Richard Griffith
1st Louisiana Special Battalion
13th Mississippi Infantry
18th Mississippi Infantry
21st Mississippi Infantry
1st Company, Richmond Howitzers


Ref: Robert Knox Sneden, “Eye of the Storm”, P 122
Aug 28th, 1862 –Bristoe Station, Va


“A picket fence surrounded the lot and on it were hundreds of Rebel blankets torn and burnt. While on the ground were two or three hundred Rebel knapsacks, which were made of oxhide with the hair outside. Our men were rummaging them, getting letters and tobacco, but nothing of any value. The Rebels had thrown off blankets and knapsacks to make a charge and never had the chance to get back to them again.”

Early’s brigade was tasked with the rear guard action at Bristoe Station
Early’s Brigade.
13th Virginia.
25th Virginia.
31st Virginia.
44th Virginia.
49th Virginia.
52d Virginia.
58th Virginia.

[1812FieldMusik]

Re: French Knapsacks

John Worsham of Co. F 21st Virginia describes his imported knapsack on page 14 of his book "One of Jackson's Foot Cavalry"

"Our knapsacks were a specialty; they were imported
from Paris, made of calfskin tanned with hair on, the
color being red and white, the skin was fitted around a
box frame. Inside they were divided into partitions;
and outside, there were openings into some of these so
that one could handle articles inside of them without
opening the whole knapsack, and there were straps on the
outside for blanket, overcoat, oilcloth and shoes, and
other straps and some hooks handy for attaching any ar-
ticle we wished to carry. We also imported our can-
teens."

If I have understood the discourse correctly, the knapsacks used by "F" Co. (Which was an old independent militia company from Richmond) were of the pattern used by the main body of the French army, being covered by a reddish, hair covered hide. It would seem that the federals who were issued the black, polished knapsacks were of the chasseur varitety. As they were the ones wearing chasseur uniforms, it makes sense! I hope this is informative and I'm not stating the obvious...

Does anyone have a source for reproductions of the "Garde Nationale" pack?
(Je parle francais, donc s'il faut, envoyez-moi un message!)