Blacks in the CS Ranks?

[jake.koch]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

I was hoping that Doug's post would be the end all post to this thread . . . .

[Old Reb]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Well, Doug doesn't get to Louisiana often enough to realize that there were many Creoles of Color that supported the Confederacy. Many were slave owners. Perhaps Doug has forgotten John Carroll Jones, a black man and slave owner that often supplied aide to General Taylor's little army of Western Louisiana. There was a homeguard unit from Natchitoches Parish, Louisiana made up of Creoles of Color. For those unfamiliar with the term Creoles of Color, it means mixed blood, usually French or Spanish and African. If you really want to get confused on who was and who wasn't a slave in Louisiana, check out Marie Coincoin. Doug should come to Louisiana more often.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Well knock me naked and take my clothes, I thought this Thread had died, was buried, had a Voodoo Gre Gre placed on it. Tom is right, colors range from flour to a brown paper bag, plus there are many...many shades of people with Chickasaw, and other Tribal People. And the beat goes on.

[jake.koch]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

I will agree that if you want to get really confused that the fine state of Louisiana is a good place to start. The slave culture in that state was completely different than in any other place in the South. A good source to read about slavery as a whole that does a good study of Southern Louisiana is "Many Thousands Gone" by Ira Berlin. Its a really thick book, and Berlin is a very smart person. The book gave me headaches in a grad seminar.

I know that there were black slaveowners, a good example of that is the William Johnson House, an NPS site in Natchez, Ms. I believe the statement about the homeguard unit in La. But I also know that those men were a very small group among the soldiers of the Confederacy. People often have mentioned another group, the Louisiana Native Guards out of New Orleans as proof that there were African American Confederates. Yes, they were free men of color with mulatto officers that volunteered for the Confederacyat the begining of the war, I do not intend to argue their motives for enlistment, but believe the fact that they left the Confederacy and joined the Union, later charging headlong into the Confederate earthworks at Port Hudson speaks fairly well for them.

Yes there were extremely rare cases of blacks that may have fought, but I believe someone on this forum (don't remember who) said it best a year or so ago in a similiar thread when they said somthing to the effect of "if there were thousands of African Americans willing to fight for the Confederacy, I think Robert E. Lee would have liked to know about it."

No disrespect is intended towards anyone here.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

My dear Grand-Mere, use to call me her "Little Creole" because I was darker than any of my cousins who had a Full- Hispanic mother. I have a cousin who has a daughter by a Mixed Creole Lady who teaches school in New Orleans, without a doubt the most beautiful child I have ever seen. Its funny, I treated this child once in the ER when she was very little. I did not now about the relationship between her and one of my cousins. I told the lady "That baby looks so much like my youngest boy" ...she replied, she should they are third cousins....I said "shut yo mouth Sha".

It is what makes us who we are.

[Old Reb]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Mr. Koch,
The Louisiana Native Guard traced it heritage back to before New Orleans was part of the US. They offered their services to the Confederacy, but were turned down. Proof enough there that the Confederacy wanted no part of black men with guns. The Native Guard disbanded but when Butler took control of New Orleans they were offered the choice between forming a Union regiment or being impressed into service as contraband workers. They chose military service and became part of General Banks' Corps de Afrique. Indeed, they fought well at Port Hudson, or were tossed into the meat grinder just as the white regiments, which ever you wish to call it. Accounts from the Confederates that faced them stated that they never got closer than two hundred yards from the CS position before they were hit by artillery fire and musket fire. Recent archeological finds in the area used by the Corps de Afrique found artifacts belonging to the Corps, the nearest, a USCT breast plate was found 211 yards from the CS position. However, depictions in the northern newspapers showed the Corps de Afrique storming the CS works and did much to win acceptance of the use of black soldiers in the US army. In fact, the first black soldiers used in a major engagement were the men from New Orleans that were turned down by the Confederacy. So, I fully agree, that while there might have been a small number of black soldiers under arms for the South, there were many many more in the US army. My point in posting in the first place was Mr. Cooper's remark about quilt and Southern apology. He knows me well enough to know I have no guilt for anything other than telling him to shut up when he was being trained on the three inch ordinance rifle at Mansfield, Louisiana and I will never apologize for that!

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

How many shades of color are there with people of Louisiana?

[BobRoeder]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

I’m probably asking for some trouble with this post, so be it. What I have to say is not meant to be “inflammatory” in anyway, just an observation.

During the last few years visiting the A-C, and other CW related fora I noticed that every once in a while someone must post something on this subject. I still wonder exactly why. There is rarely any new information presented and there is no way of avoiding the fact that the southern states had slaves and slavery did (whether one wants to accept/believe it or not) play a significant role in why the CW/WBTS was fought. There is evidence that there may have been some people of color who fought on the side of the Confederacy (i.e. the people who enslaved and oppressed them) or at least helped “the Cause” through various efforts. OK cool. What else is there to understand? History is complicated. Human beings are complicated.

One can go through the last two thousand years of human history and find many examples where members of an oppressed/conquered/enslaved people who, for various reasons, helped those who were doing the oppressing/conquering/enslaving, at least as much as they were allowed. If there is no book yet written on this subject there should be!! Just a few examples:

“Germanic” or “Celtic” (or other “Barbarous” people) who helped or were allied (auxiliaries) to the Romans who were seeking to conquer other “Germanics”/”Celtics”/ or whomever wasn’t “Roman”.

American history is filled (beginning in the early colonial period) with many many examples of members of various Native American groups who allied with and helped Europeans/Euro-Americans conquer +/or oppress, or annihilate other Native American groups – very briefly – During the later 1860’s Shoshone scouts helped Lt. Col. George Crook defeat the Paiutes ;and “Warm Springs” scouts helped defeat the Paiutes and Modoc; Pawnee scouts helped locate and destroy an Arapaho village during the Powder River Campaign; Crow scouts were with Custer at the Little Bighorn; Sioux and Cheyenne scouts were part of the US army when the massacre at Wounded Knee occurred; White Mountain and Chiricahua (Apaches) helped locate and capture Geronimo (an Apache)!!!.

Fast forward to the 20th century and you can probably even find Jews who helped the Nazis and Germans in Nazi Germany who helped Jews during World War II. In the same war German-Americans joined the Nazi army to fight Americans.

I even just finished reading a “A Woman’s Wartime Journal” at www.edinborough.com which was written by Dolly Sumner (Lunt) Burge who was born and raised in Maine, a relative of Senator Charles Sumner (!!), went to teach in Georgia with her sister, married a wealthy plantation owner (Thomas Burge), maintained the plantation w/ slaves after her husband died, and was afraid of the Yankees when Sherman and his boys took a little walk through the neighborhood!!!!

Again, history is filled w/ these little complications. People of the past did not always respond the way we think they should have. So, unless some very new evidence comes to light, like that which is comparable to Black soldiers in the Union Army , what is the point of continuing to beat this historical “dead horse”???

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Mr. Roeder,

PMO = Post Mo Off'n

From the perspective of one who expanded / changed some of my ancestrally and culturally engrained views of the CS and my understanding of the incidents precipitating, igniting and settling the American Civil War from the seeds of discussion sown from this site, I think there is value in continuing the discussion.

I also think many modern CS descendants / groups feel the need to link a Negro contribution to the CS cause to in some manner defend the honor of their forefathers and in many ways the traditional Southern values they are imbued with. These same folks are also reactive in defense of the continuous portrayal and churning by the media messiahs and poli-pop culture prophets of them being racially motivated at every turn, which the overwhelming majority are not.

I think the other side of that worn old out coin is there exists a segment of "pro-Union" folks who seek to discredit any link, often vague, of Negro involvement as it somehow tarnishes what they view as the ultimate altruistic act of the American Northern fighting man sacrificing to free enslaved Americans. Which a Negro camp laborer with a familial tie to a solider master (however warped it seems against modern sensibilities) shouldering a weapon when the minies started singing does not.

and that is part of what lies at the foundation of the eternal internets, fireside and sutler row dust ups on the issue.

If one does what you say in your post above which allowed you to lay out other historical allegories and demonstrate the "gray areas" in betwixt the extremes......one READS and not just that which supports their views, there is discovery out there which may alter the historical aperture.

On the matter at hand I personally think, from what I have READ to date, the CS had issue, with arming Negros in their ranks until the situation demanded it and of course by then it was too late, much as US forces using INDIG labor in today's conflicts are conscientious of arming or munitions access in their lines and garrisons.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Teamsters, waggoners, shoemakers, cooks, muscians were listed on muster rolls for a reason. They served in the army and provided essential services so soldiers could break things and kill people. Does not really matter one whit whether tens of thousands of black men carried weapons in the Confederate Army as long as they served honorably. And these men served in non segregated units.

It was the Union Army that segregated black men into regiments and then used them for cannon fodder.

I see this akin to forcing Jews to make artillery shells for the Germans in WWII. I have no doubts that a small number of black soldiers served in combat with the Confederate army, but stating ridiculous figure like 65,000 is just SCV, revisionism.

Jim Butler

[Hank Trent]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Teamsters, waggoners, shoemakers, cooks, muscians were listed on muster rolls for a reason. They served in the army and provided essential services so soldiers could break things and kill people. Does not really matter one whit whether tens of thousands of black men carried weapons in the Confederate Army as long as they served honorably. And these men served in non segregated units.

It was the Union Army that segregated black men into regiments and then used them for cannon fodder.

Since this has been bumped up again, the above seems to stretch the definition of non-segregated. Teamsters, cooks, etc. were segregated by job, even though they happened to be serving physically near white soldiers. It would be like claiming a neighborhood today is non-segregated because the white homeowners offer living quarters to their black cooks and gardeners, even though there are no black homeowners.

On the general topic of blacks helping whites oppress blacks, another example is blacks betraying runaways to slave-catchers. Here's one example and a longer version published in 1866, written by the black man who punished the betrayer.

I think the apparent paradox is explained simply by the fact that people don't always put the welfare of their group ahead of their own personal welfare, especially when the difference in sacrifice is great. In fact, I'd suggest that it's natural for people to place a priorty on themselves and their immediate family, rather than sacrifice themselves to help a category of people they happen to be part of.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

I see this akin to forcing Jews to make artillery shells for the Germans in WWII.
Jim Butler

I agree on prima facie but pehaps the level of applied subjugative force and restraint are not analogous.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Auld Pelty]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

I see this akin to forcing Jews to make artillery shells for the Germans in WWII. I have no doubts that a small number of black soldiers served in combat with the Confederate army, but stating ridiculous figure like 65,000 is just SCV, revisionism.

Jim Butler

Hey Jim, quit putting your warped spin on my words. I never implied there were 65,000 or even 6,500 black Confederate soldiers carrying arms. It would be interesting to know how many black men served willingly in the Confederate Army in any capacity. There were no doubt many thousands of slaves who performed work for the Union Army and no yankees complained about it. Not here anyway.

[Old Reb]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

There is a monument at Fort DeRussy, Louisiana with the names of the 65 slaves that died in the construction of the fort. There were four others that died but their names were not known. All but two died of disease. One drown. One died of combat related wounds while serving as a bugler in the Confederate Army. I do think there is too great of tendency to lump slaves into a category and forget that they were human beings, with thoughts, feelings, hopes, families, friends, etc. Yes, they were in bondage, but to throw them into a category as a group, and not focus on them as individuals is as great of a mistake as remembering the names of Generals, but giving little thought to the men in the ranks. I am certain that the debate will continue to spiral into the gutter of ones own personal opinions regarding something that they can only read about in books, but I don't read any where in the post made regarding Marvin's original post that states that some 65,000 slaves served as combat soldiers in the Confederate Army. Again, it is too easy to say slave and lump those individuals into one category and think they all thought and acted the same. As I have previously written, there is no doubt that something like 150,000 blacks served in the Federal Army. I have also brought in Creoles of Color into the discussion, not to say they were avid Confederates, but to point out that they too existed. If this thread continues with personal attacks and the putting down of peoples thoughts, it is a hopeless waste. If it contributes to enlightening people on the reality of history, then it is a good thing. Being a betting man and having little faith in humanity, I wager on the former.

[DougCooper]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Well said Tom! I suspect my own officer ancestors in the 18th LA Inf each took one of their servants to war, but have never found any concrete evidence as to their fate after one ancestor was killed and the other mustered out for disability. There are many, many namelss examples whose stories would be fascinating.

My beef here is the belief that the CSA accepted into the ranks slaves as combat soldiers to the tune of 65,000, or anything close to that. In a land where nearly 35% of the entire population was slave, there is no way you could run the war without the participation of huge numbers of slaves...but not as combat soldiers. In fact using slaves for various engineer and logistical duties actually freed up the white male population to do more of the fighting, not a small advantage.