Blacks in the CS Ranks?

[Auld Pelty]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

My original post:

Teamsters, wagoneers, shoemakers, cooks, musicians were listed on muster rolls for a reason. They served in the army and provided essential services so soldiers could break things and kill people.

Without the support of black people, free men and slaves, the Southerners would not have been able to support enough armed men to defend their country against invaders with overwhelming resources for four years. Many thousands of black men served in the Confederate Army and millions stayed home, raised crops, worked in mines, foundries, built forts, etc. Like conscripts, self determination was questionable for many. Their service to their country, their homes is part of the truth revisionists would like to grind to the earth....but, it is still truth.

[David Fox]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

OldKingCrow: I apologize for rattling your cage. Newspaper reporting has long been a bane of mine. Before and during the Civil War newspapers were pretty-much partisan, their reportage was often absurd, and "objective" was a foreign concept. Whigs, Democrats, Republicans all knew which paper to read. Now we all know which cable station to watch. In 1864 Horace Greeley declared the Union effort a failure and called for negotiations. In 1968, right after we erased the Viet Cong as a strategic force, Walter Cronkite declared the Vietnamese War a failure. And called for negotiations. "Blacks in the Confederate Army" was a tune to be played if it served a particular purpose, an ulterior motive driving the text, facts of secondary importance.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Good discussion thus far:
I tried to put this to rest some in my mind by searching the census records for slave names and then searching archives for enlistment records or pension records. I turned up something interesting. According to Tom Blake on This Website
there were 3,950,546 unnamed slaves on the Cenus records....
Unnamed slaves? So now i'm thinking that we might never know how many slaves served in the confederate army...for this reason...no records for nameless men. We may have no solid reliable sources stating the number of blacks (free or not) in the confederate ranks.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

I tried to put this to rest some in my mind by searching the census records for slave names and then searching archives for enlistment records or pension records. I turned up something interesting. According to Tom Blake on This Website
there were 3,950,546 unnamed slaves on the Cenus records....
Unnamed slaves? So now i'm thinking that we might never know how many slaves served in the confederate army...for this reason...no records for nameless men. We may have no solid reliable sources stating the number of blacks (free or not) in the confederate ranks.

Am I missing something? Aren't all the slaves unnamed on the US slave census records? As I recall, it just lists owner's name and the slaves' sexes and ages (can't recall if it also lists black/mulatto). Edited to add: just clicked on the link and learned the trivia fact that slaves over 100 years old were supposed to have their first name listed.

I would love to know of some censuses that list slaves' names. Are there any?

Edited to further add: Or maybe I'm misunderstanding. The first sentence makes it sound like you found some slave names censuses, but then realized that with almost four million missing ones, the odds of finding any who were soldiers were slim. But maybe you're saying you started to look but didn't find any at all.

I've long wished for censuses that include slave names, so I was just hoping you'd found one... :)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[lukegilly13]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Hank,
I don't know of any either. My point is that if slaves were "unammed" on federal documents, I don't know how sufficient records could of been kept to prove their service.

Now, if we are talking "freedmen"....one could theoretically run a search of names in the soldiers and sailors system if you had the time.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Hank,
I don't know of any either. My point is that if slaves were "unammed" on federal documents, I don't know how sufficient records could of been kept to prove their service.

Okay, got it now. For slaves used to build fortifications, I suspect that the best records we could hope for would be contracts with their owners, but I don't know if any have survived.

For individual slaves who accompanied their masters, I just assumed it would be the master's responsibility to feed and clothe them, so the extra rations would go to the master's account (if he was an officer) and everything else would come out of the master's pocket. Though that's a good question in itself. In the case of known slaves accompanying their masters, based on memoirs, regimental histories, etc., are there any examples where the slaves are listed separately by their own name for clothing and rations in surviving records?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

OldKingCrow: I apologize for rattling your cage. Newspaper reporting has long been a bane of mine. Before and during the Civil War newspapers were pretty-much partisan, their reportage was often absurd, and "objective" was a foreign concept. Whigs, Democrats, Republicans all knew which paper to read. Now we all know which cable station to watch. In 1864 Horace Greeley declared the Union effort a failure and called for negotiations. In 1968, right after we erased the Viet Cong as a strategic force, Walter Croncite declared the Vietnamese War a failure. And called for negotiations. "Blacks in the Confederate Army" was a tune to be played if it served a particular purpose, an ulterior motive driving the text, facts of secondary importance.

No apologies needed, cage is structurally sufficient.

You didn't read what I posted. Plain and simple. Had you, you might have noticed that the newspaper clips were from a wide variety of sources (incl Unionist) and not a single one supported any claims of significant Negro CS numbers. I also posted the legislative history and staunch opponents of the CS Congress enactment of the Negro Conscription Act of 1865.

As to newspapers: clearly bias has been part of the routine since the inception of printed media, right thru to today's blogosphere and cable networks, no argument there. Anyone with common sense (most times) can tell a factual statement from a hyped up spin piece, especially with our hindsight into the period and as they were often so grandiose and patently disingenuous in their proclamations. Again, had you read what I posted, you might have noticed these were statement of fact type reportings. i.e "8 Negro's were captured in CS uniforms in Tn" as printed in letter from a US military field official which made its way to a NY paper.

I have read your posts and take away you're a knowledgeable guy, but it is fair to note that your positions are most times to be taken on your word as your posts typically lack any period support. Lacking that support accuracy can be questionable. As an example of this I draw your attention to last line of your quoted post above:

"Blacks in the Confederate Army" was a tune to be played if it served a particular purpose, an ulterior motive driving the text, facts of secondary importance.

Unsupported one might think yes, Blacks in the CS Army is used in exactly in that fashion by Revisionists today so it must have been then, but if you dig into the history and the periodicals "Blacks in the CS Army" wasn't used at all as you assert and Southern papers overwhelmingly denounced the very thought of Negro soldiers. I challenge you to show an example of over statement of Negro numbers as combatants in the CS Arny as a spropaganda tool or serving an ulterior motive in any Southern newspaper.

[hendrickms24]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

My original post:

Teamsters, wagoneers, shoemakers, cooks, musicians were listed on muster rolls for a reason. They served in the army and provided essential services so soldiers could break things and kill people.

I would love to see CS Unit muster rolls that list teamster, Wagoneers, shoemakers & Etc.
I just never see one so please post a copy if you have one.

Thanks,

[Auld Pelty]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

I would love to see CS Unit muster rolls that list teamster, Wagoneers, shoemakers & Etc.
I just never see one so please post a copy if you have one.

Thanks,

And you won't see a CS muster roll that stipulates the soldier's race either, but I would not discourage you from such important research.

[Johan Steele]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

CS soldiers didn't write home about the splendid service of all those black men bearing arms for the cause. CS newspapers didn't brag about their accomplishments and prowess on the field, in fact their mention is all but non existant. Union gravediggers didn't comment on the large numbers of black men wearing gray or butternut they supposedly interred. Brady never took any pictures of rows of dead black confederate soldiers. Union officers didn't mention the large numbers of black men bearing arms for the CS that crossed their path in the parole or POW system. Men of the Iron Brigade, Irish Brigade etc never mentioned the hordes of black CS soldiers coming at them through the smoke. And Neither Jeff Davis or Genl Patrick Cleburne seenmed to be aware of the thousands upon thousands of black confederate soldiers pouring in to serve the cause.

Could just once someone who supports the idea of hordes of black Confederates provide me with the units they served in, where they fought and most importantly who saw them there? Because to the tune of 3200 odd letters and diaries I can count on one hand the mention of black men fighting for the CS flag. The idea that 65,000 black men fought for the CS is a pipe dream and we won't even go into the claims of an "integrated" CS army.

Black CS soldiers deserve a place on this site right beside galtroops; yes they existed but in numbers so insignificant as to be considered modern farb bait.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

And you won't see a CS muster roll that stipulates the soldier's race either, but I would not discourage you from such important research.

Actually, Mark brings up a good point. The occupations you listed would not appear on a muster roll. The teamsters would show on Quartermaster contracts, listing either the freemen or masters receiving pay, the servants and cooks would receive pay directly from the officer hiring them (sometimes, as described in Lee's correspondence, even slaves got extra money performing this role), and other laborers would receive pay from the departments for which they worked (e.g., ordnance, subsistence).

Also, if you wanted to look for race you wouldn't bother with the muster roll but would go to the descriptive list.

Mr. Steele brings up an equally valid point about contemporary accounts. There are a few of black sharp shooters on the Peninsula, but there's no correlation of such on the Confederate side. This leads to the suspicion that the phenomenon arose from camp rumors and the complexion of white soldiers after a few weeks without washing and sitting around pine wood fires.

Without official documentation or solid contemporary accounts, the technical term for what you have is bupkiss.

[hendrickms24]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

And you won't see a CS muster roll that stipulates the soldier's race either, but I would not discourage you from such important research.

Are you saying that the CSA Unit did not have Descriptive books which would have list important information about the soldiers like there very Dark Complexion or Black! Just wondering since I have not seen one yet.

The “Descriptive roll of Company” includes the following information:

Names

Description:
Age
Height
Feet/inches
Complexion
Eyes
Hair

Where born
Town or County/State
Occupation

Enlistment:
When
Where
By whom
Term

Remarks:

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

In the book "Black Southerners in Confederate Armies" the author lists a total of 18 "colored" troops in Georgia units in the AoT and ANV. Their services vary from cook to drummer to nurse. Did they serve voluntarily? They are not here to tell us.
As has been mentioned there are many vital positions in an army that do not involve carrying a rifle into combat.
I don't think there can be any doubt that black soldiers did serve in Confederate Armies.
64,000? I think that number is absurd. As has also been stated 64,000 additional troops of any color added to the armies of the Confederacy would likely have changed the course of the War.
Tom Dodson

[Auld Pelty]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Are you saying that the CSA Unit did not have Descriptive books which would have list important information about the soldiers like there very Dark Complexion or Black! Just wondering since I have not seen one yet.

The “Descriptive roll of Company” includes the following information:

Names

Description:
Age
Height
Feet/inches
Complexion
Eyes
Hair

Where born
Town or County/State
Occupation

Enlistment:
When
Where
By whom
Term

Remarks:

Granted, "black" is unmistakable, but you are encoding something not intended by the authors. "Dark" complexion often referred to Caucasian men. Otherwise, there surely were tens of thousands of black soldiers. Had the Army intended to identify soldiers by race, they would have listed them as "white, negro, Indian, etc" along with complexion or in place of it.

No one will ever be able to calculate the numbers of black Confederate soldiers. I never said there were many of them---read my posts. My assertion is the loyalty of black Southerners was vital to the Confederacy. 64,000 black Confederates could have impacted the course of the War, especially if they were mustered early, but not nearly so much as a nationwide slave rebellion.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

I don't want to argue where our differences may lie in our interpretations rather than the facts themselves. A lot of the negative reaction to terms like "black Confederates" and "black soldiers" -- at least on my part -- comes from the inference of loyalty and support on the part of people who were, by and large, slaves.

If you modify the terms and talk about black laborers, servants, teamsters, &c. in large numbers, with a few notable examples of some who took up arms, then there's essential agreement.

Going beyond that, there's a lot of interesting room for research (and tremendous temptation to speculate) on the question of motivation on the part of blacks working for the Confederate army. Compulsion might be one factor, but pay, family loyalties, an apolitical sense of community, or desire to escape -- either one's normal day job or the condition of slavery entirely -- all had to play parts. But I'm not aware of any studies that would allow us to draw a general conclusion.

It may be worth mentioning that you could raise similar questions about the motivations of white troops on both sides, especially after the introduction of conscription in the south and the advent of huge bounties in the north.