Blacks in the CS Ranks?

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Many interesting questions have been raised here. Southerners who owned more than 20 slaves were exempt from the conscription act. That gives real credence to the saying of "Rich man's war: Poor man's fight".
Then you look at the draft riots in New York. After the Emancipation Proclamation I have read that many northern soldiers wanted no further part of the War. They were not fighting to end slavery but to preserve the Union. I have read many accounts of northern soldiers and officers freely using the "N" word. It was used in the south freely also.
It is hard to you inside someone's mind 150 years after the fact, regardless of their color or regional affiliation.
Tom Dodson

[Busterbuttonboy]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

All
Please consider reading the following books which covers the topic of blacks in Confederate Ranks rather well.

Confederate Emancipation:

http://books.google.com/books?id=KOO6y1-1DnsC&pg=PP1&dq=confederate+emancipation#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Specifically he separates the impressing of slaves for the erection of fortifications, team driving and those very few who were mention by Mike S as being raised in Richmond in the last few weeks of the ANV's existence. It is a great read by a well researched historian. Specifically interesting is all the revisionist/ lost cause mentality which he is forced to mire through until the primary sources illustrate the truth behind the numbers actually fielded.

Slavery in Public History

http://books.google.com/books?id=A4t1PAAACAAJ&dq=slavery+in+public+history

There are a number of issues talked about here but the topic of black confederates comes up and is discussed in detail using some great quotes from top confederate officials. In fact I just read it today.
As an added bonus he talked about troops who were pulled out of units for having darker than normal skin types, the proposal brought forth by Dabney Maury for arming blacks as well as that by Patrick R. Cleburne.

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Back to one of the original questions: I am not aware of any photograph of an armed or identified black man in a Confederate uniform who is on a muster roll as a soldier.

I see someone else posted some previous discussions on this matter so I'm going to be brief (I hope).

First to echo Drew I would encourage folks to read Levine's work Confederate Emancipation: Southern Plans to Free and Arm Slaves during the Civil War (Oxford, 2005).

I would also encourage folks to check out Slavery and Public History: The Tough Stuff of American Memory edited By James Oliver Horton and Lois E. Horton (University of North Carolina Press, 2009).

One of the best works still on this subject is Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia by Ervin L. Jordan (University of Virginia Press, 1995). It includes an appendix regarding the mostly unsuccessful hope for the Confederate States Colored Troops (modeled in the same way that the USCTs were).

Again, I think that it has been suggested by Mike Schafftner that we must be more accurate in how we describe the participation of blacks in the Confederate military. If we see blacks as soldiers then I am convinced we need documentation. There is such documentation, most notably at the Battle of Paineville in April 1865.

However, if we understand blacks as agents in the Confederacy's ability to conduct a four year war in these support roles of cooks, teamsters, railroad workers, and the agricultural productivity that continued during the war then do we have to say all blacks were black Confederates? I do not think so.

I do believe that those roles are important (in fact no one here has said they were not) but I do not count them as "in the ranks."

In terms of more reading I will direct your attention to:

In View of the Great Want of Labor: A Legislative History of African American Conscription in the Confederacy which was compiled by E. Renee Ingram (Willow Bend Books: Westminster, MD, 2002). While yes it has not come from some grand university press, Renee did her homework like any good historian. Her work in fact helped me discover that my g-g-grandfather and one g-g-uncle are listed as having been conscripted by one of their white cousins to go be with Confederate engineer, Charles H. Dimmock.

Finally, there is a new dissertation that I will have to look up regarding this same topic as it relates to Virginia and North Carolina and conscription of enslaved laborers.

Well, how's that for brief?

[Mgreer]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

I do believe we have gotten off track of the question I was asking. I do not count slaves as soldier. We are talking about armed combatants NOT cooks, teamsters, and servants. On federal records they are not listed as soldiers but contract laborers. News paper accounts are not the most reliable because as we all know many newspapers have agendas especially at that time.

During the entire time Gen. George Thomas was in command of the AOC, there is not one mention of the AOC capturing a “black” Confederate. This could mean a number of things:

1. Blacks were so loyal to the CSA that they never surrendered.
2. Units in the AOC killed them before they could be reported as POW’s
3. No blacks were ever captured.
4. There was no large group of black participation in the rebel army.

Now that said, in his reports there are ample records of runaways coming into his lines, some of whom were wearing confederate uniforms. But you can look at pictures for union army caps and see servants wearing federal uniforms so that still proves nothing. And just because a man is in a veteran’s photo does not mean he was a combatant.

So I will ask again. Are there any credible accounts of large numbers (not necessarily groups, but numbers) of African Americans FIGHTING (NOT slaves operating as cooks, teamsters, and servants) for the rebel cause? Photos of armed blacks would be preferred too.

[Busterbuttonboy]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Three people, myself included have already talked about the Richmond Colored Company and the battle of Painesville. They were raised to fight and did indeed do so.

Reading was suggested. However if you must have an immediate source it is here: http://www.nps.gov/apco/black-soldiers.htm

[Iceman]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

I do not know of a large body of blacks fighting for the provisional army of the Confederate States of America, but at the State level, there were many companies that were made up of free blacks fighting for the State of Louisiana. Pre-war, there were the free blacks in New Orleans that had their own companies. Then, during the war, the free blacks in the Cane River Valley region of Louisiana (between Natchitoches and Monetts Ferry) were State militia, to fight and defend their homes and property from Union invasion. These free blacks of the Cane River were fighting for the the Confederate State of Louisiana, and not for the United States. I would suggest reading The Forgotten People: Cane River's Creoles of Color for a better understanding of this unique demographic in American history.

[ewtaylor]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

This has been done to death. Just agree to disagree and move on.
Here is a poor quality pick. These men were (I think) in the 44th Miss. Inf.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Daily Dispatch Jan 21, 1861

A correspondent of the Baltimore American, who has visited the fortifications in the harbor of Charleston, narrates some interesting incidents connected therewith. He says:

At starting we had on board, in addition to the party of gentlemen in the suite of officials, going the rounds of the forts, about one hundred and fifty or two hundred hearty, strong negro men, intended for laborers on Sullivan's Island. These fellows chattered and jabbered their peculiar negro lingo with infinite delight at the prospect of becoming, as they termed it, "Roger's to fight for Sonny Carline." Rolled up in huge knots, wherever the sun shone, they dozed away in peaceful slumbers, or grinned with delight as anything pleasing to the fancy passed in review. The ideas and language interchanged among them, and to all who cause to address them, evinced almost barbaric simplicity. The majority of them exhibited a wonderfully stupid set of features. One of them, however, the most intelligent fellow in the lot, gave quite satisfactory answers to most of the inquiries propounded to him. All the rest seemed satisfied simply with showing their ivories and acquiescing in whatever replies their spokesman should make. He, in answer to my questions, informed me that most of the set of hands were from "Santee, sah," from "de big plantation, sah, on do river. "



Question.--Were you ever on the sea, or on rough water before?

Answer.--O, yes, massa!--De Santee sometime run so high dat cannon (canoes) swamp.

Q.--How would you like to cross this harbor in a canoe?

A.--(With two short, indescribable grunts,) Cannon, sink, sah.

Q.--Where are you going now?

A.--To Moutry, (Moultrie,) sah.

Q.--What to do these?

A.--To fight, sah, and to build up forts on de island, sah.

Q.--Who are you going to fight?

A.--De darn Yankees, sah, and Abolitionists. (Laughter,)

Q.--You don't dislike Yankees?

A.--Not exactly, sah, but massa do; and, sides, dey come here to steal us; and young massa John come up to do people's quarters day fore yesterday, and when he call all of us together he state de case to us, and tell us dat-

sufferin' was goin' wrong down to de city. Dat de Yankee nigger thief would fight, and dat if we wanted we should go down and help kill 'em.

Q.--What did you say to that?

A.--We all volunteered right away, but massa John picked out the best lot of hands and sent 'em right away to join dese here other boys, and so we all come down.

Q.--Do you know how to shoot?

A.--Yes, sah. (The fellow's eyes twinkled with pleasure at the prospect.) I learn young massa John to handle he rifle. When he was a boy we used to shoot deer together, and I learned him where to strike and how to load up.

Q.--Will your master come down to the Island and fight?

A.--Yes, sah; he promised to join us soon in the works with he company.

One great big fellow over in a sunny corner of the deck had been an attentive listener to the conversation, and whenever the replies of his fellow slave gave him peculiar pleasure, or coincided with his views, a grin would spread clear across his face, and thinking that he might be inclined to talk I approached him and put the question, "Well, Sam, what can you do in a fight?"

A.--Run, sah, when Bucra man come widda gun, " and at the same time tipping his hat and scraping his foot, asked " if Massa please give him chaw tobacco."

[Chad Wrinn]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Well here is an account FROM A YANKEE stating that there was a definite number of Blacks fighting against him. The reason nobody can prove a certain number of blacks that fought for the Confederacy is because they simply did not segregate them as the Union Armies did if you segregated them and make a big deal out of it then they will get more attention.
A good friend of mine found this.

JULY 13, 1862.--Action at and surrender of Murfreesborough, Tenn. No. 8.--[from the] Report of Lieut. Col. John
G. Parkhurst, Ninth Michigan Infantry.
...The forces attacking my camp were the First Regiment Texas Rangers [8th Texas Cavalry], Colonel Wharton, and a battalion of the First Georgia Rangers [1st Georgia Cavalry], Colonel Morrison....There were also quite a number of negroes attached to the Texas and Georgia troops, who were armed and equipped, and took part in the several engagements with my forces during the day....We maintained our position, despite the frequent attacks and desperate efforts of the enemy to destroy us,
until 11.30 o'clock, when a flag of truce was sent to us, with a demand for a surrender.
J. G. PARKHURST, Lieut. Col, Ninth Regiment Michigan Infantry, Comdg.

Underline & [corrections] are mine.

[Chad Wrinn]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

"During the entire time Gen. George Thomas was in command of the AOC, there is not one mention of the AOC capturing a “black” Confederate. This could mean a number of things:

1. Blacks were so loyal to the CSA that they never surrendered.
2. Units in the AOC killed them before they could be reported as POW’s
3. No blacks were ever captured.
4. There was no large group of black participation in the rebel army. "

Maybe it was a common sight to see Black Confederates and it did not need to be mentioned OR maybe he was trying NOT to mention anything on purpose to make it appear that all the Blacks hated the South and everything it was about.

[Sut Lovingood]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

I do not know of a large body of blacks fighting for the provisional army of the Confederate States of America, but at the State level, there were many companies that were made up of free blacks fighting for the State of Louisiana. Pre-war, there were the free blacks in New Orleans that had their own companies. Then, during the war, the free blacks in the Cane River Valley region of Louisiana (between Natchitoches and Monetts Ferry) were State militia, to fight and defend their homes and property from Union invasion. These free blacks of the Cane River were fighting for the the Confederate State of Louisiana, and not for the United States. I would suggest reading The Forgotten People: Cane River's Creoles of Color for a better understanding of this unique demographic in American history.

Mr. Clark, great point about state troops.
The quote below is from a lengthy WPA narrative taken in Galveston, TX. 1937. The woman had been a slave of my GGGrandfathers brother. She mentions some of his slaves going to fight and being killed.
State: Texas Interviewee: Ware, Annie Whitley
(Liberato, Mary E. PW, Galveston, Texas. Dist. 6, 13 April 1937
Marse Whitley had er big frame house an' four or five house sarbants. He plantation had three or four hundred acres in it an' he owned between seventy-five an' er hundred slaves w'en dey was freed. Some ob 'em had gone ter de war an' been kilt an' he had sold some durin' de war. He made he slaves wukk hard but he did not cut 'em up wid de whip. His oberseer was John Jackson.
Were they teamsters, cooks, etc.? Who knows. But family diaries have at least one man who "fought side" of my GGGrandfather in the Red River Campaign. There are no military records of him that I have found, the black man that is. But he lived at the same address as my GGGrandfather until death many many years after the war so something made them close. Family records also indicate they were in state guard units.
There are also many prison records showing black confederates listed as soldiers, Camp Morton, Camp Douglas, are two that come to mind. Camp Douglas last prisoner release, if I remember, was a black confederate soldier.

The 65,000 number is to me unprovable as an over or under estimation, therefore had no relevent reason for being. Black Confederates, yes there were. Misguided, forced, of their own accord, probably all of the above.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Well here is an account FROM A YANKEE stating that there was a definite number of Blacks fighting against him. The reason nobody can prove a certain number of blacks that fought for the Confederacy is because they simply did not segregate them as the Union Armies did if you segregated them and make a big deal out of it then they will get more attention.
A good friend of mine found this.

JULY 13, 1862.--Action at and surrender of Murfreesborough, Tenn. No. 8.--[from the] Report of Lieut. Col. John
G. Parkhurst, Ninth Michigan Infantry.
...The forces attacking my camp were the First Regiment Texas Rangers [8th Texas Cavalry], Colonel Wharton, and a battalion of the First Georgia Rangers [1st Georgia Cavalry], Colonel Morrison....There were also quite a number of negroes attached to the Texas and Georgia troops, who were armed and equipped, and took part in the several engagements with my forces during the day....We maintained our position, despite the frequent attacks and desperate efforts of the enemy to destroy us,
until 11.30 o'clock, when a flag of truce was sent to us, with a demand for a surrender.
J. G. PARKHURST, Lieut. Col, Ninth Regiment Michigan Infantry, Comdg.

Underline & [corrections] are mine.

The anecdotal report of a union officer is less useful than a confederate source from the units you identified. Looking at Our Trust is in the God of Battle, the letters of Robert Franklin of the Eighth Texas Cavalry, I see no mention of blacks in the regiment, but several letters in which Franklin argues for arming the slaves in order to counter the use of black soldiers by the north -- an argument he wouldn't have to make if they were already serving alongside him.

The argument that the confederate army was more enlightened racially and freely integrated black and white troops seems -- in light of the lack of evidence for black troops, and what we know about the struggle the confederacy went through to accept them in 1865 -- to willfully ignore what facts we do have in favor of those we might like to have instead.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

The argument that the confederate army was more enlightened racially and freely integrated black and white troops seems -- in light of the lack of evidence for black troops, and what we know about the struggle the confederacy went through to accept them in 1865 -- to willfully ignore what facts we do have in favor of those we might like to have instead.

Schnapps no one is arguing CS racial enlightenment nor willfully ignoring facts we do have.

Do you prefer that people not post period accounts they find ?

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Scanning the history of the First Georgia Cavalry, I can find no mention of black soldiers in the ranks.

Does anyone know of any muster roll, journal entry, letter home, or other document prepared by a confederate soldier that would document the presence of blacks in the ranks of the Eighth Texas or First Georgia cavalry?

If the "period account" in question is the claim of a white officer in the other army, unsubstantiated by any documentation from the army in which these soldiers are purported to have served, then I think that the claim that "The reason nobody can prove a certain number of blacks that fought for the Confederacy is because they simply did not segregate them as the Union Armies did" remains baseless.

The best evidence we have is that, apart from two or three companies regularly raised and mustered in Richmond in 1865, blacks did not serve as soldiers in the confederate army. Those who did serve as soldiers served in a segregated unit. Those who served as noncombatants were effectively segregated by their occupation as servants, teamsters, laborers, and workmen.

[PaulJ]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Hi,
thinking about Michael's (A. Schaffner) point above - is it possible that a Confederate officer who has allowed blacks to be armed in his unit - yet this is in flagrant disregard of Confederate government policy - he might not feel free to mention this in an official report! Perhaps he was arguing for an official endorsement of what was already a reality, at least in his own unit. If a Union officer were to report simply what he sees with his own eyes - what would his motive be for lying?

Regards