Blacks in the CS Ranks?

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

"More men than the regular army".
Are you saying there were more black soldiers than there were white soldiers in the Union army during the War of the Rebellion?
Tom Dodson

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

"More men than the regular army".
Are you saying there were more black soldiers than there were white soldiers in the Union army during the War of the Rebellion?
Tom Dodson

Clearly he means there were more USCT than Regulars, as opposed to the volunteer regiments raised by the states. Black regiments in fact comprised the largest component of forces raised directly by the federal government during the war, a fact noted by Shannon in The Organization and Administration of the Union Army in 1929, but pretty easy for anyone to look up now.

[Coatsy]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Regular Army = US professonial soliders aka The 2nd US infantry or the 6th US cavalry. This is where the cadets from West Point would go to after they graduated. This was the standing professonial army.

Then there is the VOLUNTEER units from the states that mustered into national service such as the 7th Connecticut, 75th New York, 11th Illionios, etc. Since the US Regular army was so small at the beginning of the war this is why Lincoln called for hundreds of thousands of volunteers.

The US Regular army aka professional army was small in numbers, especially at the beginning of the Civil War. The USCT actually did outnumber the US REGULAR army units.

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

OK. My point was that the number of white soldiers in the Union army during the War, be they volunteers or "regular" army or regardless of unit or whatever name or affiliation would dwarf the number of black soldiers in the Union army.
Tom Dodson

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

In conclusion, at least from my end, I will post this.
Yes the United States had a small "regular" army at the start of the War. There has been no differentiation made before in this thread between "regular" army and the "volunteer", draftee, mercenary army that made up the majority of the Union's troops. The USCT may well have been greater in number than the pre war regular army. I hardly see how that is relevant to this discussion.
In comparison to the millions of troops who were in the Union armies during the course of the War the black troops were relatively few in number. The possibly hundreds of black troops who fought in the Confederate army are even less of an issue.
My statement was that I do not believe the black troops on either side contributed significantly to the outcome of the War.
I have read nothing in these pages of posts to change my mind. I am only surprised that this thread has gone on for so long.
Tom Dodson

[lukegilly13]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Yes black Southerners did fire at Yankees but they were not fighting for the Confederate government. Why would they fight for a government that was formed on the believe that African-Americans were inferior in every way to whites? Why would they fight to keep their kin enslaved? Please answer me that.

Please enlighten me.

Bill

Oh and the reason why African-Americans didn't migrate North after the War was that they were franchised citizens. It wasn't until after Jim Crow reared his ugly head that you see black Southerners move North in increasing numbers.

Bill,
Please do not take this argument into people's opinion's of why the confederate governments were formed. We can all agree that slavery was an issue. I can agree with you that most southerns of the period thought slaves and freed folk to be inferior. But in your context you are implying that only southerners thought this. President Lincoln himself by no means believed himself equal to blacks. You will have a difficult time finding very many americans (including northerners) in the period who did consider themselves equal to blacks. There are many reasons that blacks did not migrate north pertaining to culture and economics. I would recommend some reading on the 15th Amendment. It was ratified on February 3rd 1870 and prevents ANY state from denying a citizen the right to vote based on race or color. This is a constitutional amendment that says ANY State...not just southern states. The 13th Amendment prohibits involuntary servitude in ALL STATES. Not just the south. If you will check through United States History, you will find that even before the Civil War racial discrimination occured throughout the country. Therefore it is an invalid argument to say that Black did not fight for the confederacy because the confederate government considered themselves superior to them. If you go by that argument then they would not have fought for anyone (except maybe Chamberlain) and we know that to be false.

[David Fox]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

To quote loosely the actor playing Lou Armistead in the Turner movie "Gettysburg" when faced with a like situation, the searing logic to which this tread has descended has so dazzled and transfixed me that I shall reluctantly exercise my option of not reopening it as a matter of the merest self defense.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

...My statement was that I do not believe the black troops on either side contributed significantly to the outcome of the War.
I have read nothing in these pages of posts to change my mind. I am only surprised that this thread has gone on for so long.
Tom Dodson

I agree on your last point, but I guess this thread has touched on a number of subjects other than the original one, each of which probably deserved its own thread.

I think one can say that while black troops did not contribute significantly to the southern war effort, blacks serving as teamsters, servants, and craftsmen did. There's a great discussion in Buff Facings and Gilt Buttons.

The number of USCT was significant even compared to the total union forces raised over the full course of the war, but it's probably worthwhile to consider when they were raised and the situation obtaining at that time.

A good summary statement is in the Official Records, Series III, Volume 5, pp. 137-140, which provides the report of C.W. Foster of the AGO's Bureau for Colored Troops. He gives the total number in service in July 1865 as 123,000 (the highest number reached during the war), while other counts give the total size of the army as some 900,000 to a million. In other words, by the end of the war, one out of eight U.S. soldiers was black.

[Sut Lovingood]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Ok, that was fun...now back to the original question:

I was recently in a debate on Black Confederates; the gentleman stated that the Confederacy welcomed Negro soldiers with open arms. He presented the following as proof, also stating that 65,000 was a very conservative number.

On Black Confederates By Scott Williams
"‘It has been estimated that over 65,000 Southern blacks were in the Confederate ranks. Over 13,000 of these, "saw the elephant" also known as meeting the enemy in combat. These Black Confederates included both slave and free. The Confederate Congress did not approve blacks to be officially enlisted as soldiers (except as musicians), until late in the war. But in the ranks it was a different story. Many Confederate officers did not obey the mandates of politicians, they frequently enlisted blacks with the simple criteria, "Will you fight?" Historian Ervin Jordan, explains that "biracial units" were frequently organized "by local Confederate and State militia Commanders in response to immediate threats in the form of Union raids". Dr. Leonard Haynes, an African-American professor at Southern University, stated, 'When you eliminate the black Confederate soldier, you've eliminated the history of the South.' "

As it goes with most debates such as these the Louisiana Native Guards came up. But I have had no success in finding documentation that the CSA accepted this militia group into their service. I do believe that I read years ago that the Confederacy denied the Louisiana Native Guards the privilege of fighting for the CSA. The Louisiana Native Guards never received uniforms or weapons

On March 13, 1865 Recruitment of Black soldiers was approved by the Confederate Congress and signed by President Jefferson Davis. Two companies of blacks were enlisted under this act. But these men never saw action.

I will admit there were blacks that did fight for the south but I have not found the proof to say that 65,000 plus men of color served in rebel ranks. I will admit there were several hundred thousand slaves and free men pressed into work gangs as laborers.

Now all that being said, does anyone have any reliable sources that would give a realistic number of blacks that fought Union troops, or photos of black confederate soldiers? I am not looking for slaves and man servants.

Thanks

Marvin

I have stated that I am of the opinion that the 65,000 cannot be proved or disproved because there is a lack of evidence. Many have sided with the opinion that the lack of evidence is because it didn't happen. I may be of that opinion, but if I am it is personal opinion. The reasons in forming an opinion need to based in research of the topic....of primary sources. There are multiple reasons why the records do not exist. Let's look at these reasons. There are many states to choose from but I will choose to open with South Carolina.
Topic of pension records.
As I understand it, S.C. pensions were set up in 1866, through a brief disability compensation. Again in 1887 for Confederate soldiers, but the state didn't recognize black pension applications until 1923. On March 16, 1923 the state passed an Act to Provide for Pensions for certain "faithful Negroes" who were engaged in the service of the State in the War between the States." With this act, any blacks who served the Confederacy loyally were eligible. Additional qualifications required at least six months of service and recommendation by the County Board of Pensions. There was a set limit of funds, not to exceed $25 annually per applicant. Many applied, so many that the state made changes to those who would receive funding.

In 1924 there was an ammendment to include only South Carolina residents who served the state for at least six months as "body servants or male camp cooks." By this provision the 1924 act eliminated all laborers, teamsters, and soldiers.

The pension application records have very interesting information about these men as they were required to list among other things their occupation and where they were in service. Each application required two signatures verifying the claim. There is also strong evidence of name changes after the Civil War. This is understandable, but the men with name changes are now almost impossible to find because they do not appear on memory rolls or official records.

Example:
One man named Tom Bing said he was a private soldier from 1861-65 in Colcock's Regiment under Capt. Peeples. Outside of his statement, there is no "official" records to substantiate his claim.

But to answer your question, unless we can somehow bring back destroyed records or the dead, there will never be a way to substantiate any number of these men. For any number to be used either high or low balled is specualtion at best.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

You seem to be implying that the lack of documentation leaves the question of 65,000 black confederate soldiers open in either direction.

Others might argue that the lack of documentation for 65,000 black soldiers pretty much solves the question, given the amount of documentation for hundreds of thousands of white confederate soldiers and significant numbers of black laborers, servants and teamsters.

Still others might conclude that, if absence of documentation leaves the question open, then we might just as easily discuss the number of Martians who supported the southern cause.

This might be a good time to step back, honor the sacrifices of the USCT, and leave the gallant black confederate soldier to continue to shoulder his lonely burden alongside the frontline vivandiere.

[Auld Pelty]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

"This might be a good time to step back, honor the sacrifices of the USCT, and leave the gallant black confederate soldier to continue to shoulder his lonely burden alongside the frontline vivandiere. "

Class Act, bravo! So what other races of lower case- confederates would you like to insult? How about the cherokees or mexicans?

[Johan Steele]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Simply put there is no credible evidence of armed black men serving the CS in any appreciable numbers. General Cleburne was unaware of it, as was Lee, Johnson, Bragg and even the President Davis were blissfully unaware of thousands of armed black men in the ranks of the CS.

There is credible evidence of Cherokees, and other Native Americans serving the CS in combat roles. It can be easily found using credible and reliable sources. Same is true of Mexicans, or more properly Texicans I believe was one period term. They were mentioned at the time.... hordes of Armed black confederates were not.

So we are once again back to evidence of their existance in ones and twos... about like CS troops wearing jaguar skin trousers andwith about the same amount of photographic evidence.

[Sut Lovingood]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Pvt. Schnapps, That is Exactly what I'm implying. I stated I have an opinion, one based on my research...but that research was done knowing I had no chance of viewing a complete record..as one doesn't exist. Do I personally feel that if every record was available, with all documentation regarding Black Confederates, that the number would be anywhere near 65,000. To that my personal feeling is no, it wouldn't.
I work in an archives, yet I know that there are events that we have little or no record of. The Army of the 20th century has lost records. It happens...a lot. Lack of evidence is a great indicator, and may more often than not put a researcher on the right trail. But it is not the end all.

Quote Pvt. Schnapps:
"Still others might conclude that, if absence of documentation leaves the question open, then we might just as easily discuss the number of Martians who supported the southern cause."
This must be some of that stellar Authentic Campaigner commentary I've heard so much of.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

You're right. What anyone chooses to believe without support from the historical record is up to them.

[ewtaylor]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

You're right. What anyone chooses to believe without support from the historical record is up to them.

It seems to be working both ways. You people are going to believe what you want, with or without documentation. When I say you people I mean both sides. There is no way to win this arguement. We were not there, we just don't know.

The following ebook is from 1919 and discusses the roles of Blacks in the CS Army. Basically it says they were used any and every way they could be used, but mostly for non-combat roles. And yes, it gives some numbers also.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5POVMvsdp3MC&pg=PA239&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=5#v=onepage&q=&f=false