Blacks in the CS Ranks?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Hallo

Moderator hat on..

This has slid down the Slippery Slope of the argument that "absence of proof is not proof of absence" and "we don't know everything that happened."

Please rein this horse in and back towards the more researched and documented.

Danke.

Curt
Moderator

[Sut Lovingood]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Here is another example of how difficult it is to get to a definitive answer using records.

I have placed a link to the muster rolls of the 5th TX Cav. (Mounted Volunteers)http://www.currensnet.com/Muster%20Rolls/5txasmu.HTM

Now, the Nesbitt Memorial Library in Columbus, TX. (also this information was used in a book by Bill Stein, I believe it is Ungilded Lily of Colubus County TX pub. by the library) has the following information regarding slaves who came to the field on the New Mexico campaign. Most of the information came from Shropshire's letters.

9 Muster Rolls, Company A, Fifth Texas Cavalry, Microfilm edition in Archives of the Nesbitt Memorial Library, Columbus; Colorado Citizen, August 10, 1861, August 24, 1861, September 7, 1861, August 1, 1913; Colorado County District Court Records, Civil Cause File No. 1761: Robert G. Morgan, Jr. v. William Stapleton; Eighth Census of the United States (1860), Colorado County, Texas, Schedule 1; Colorado County Police [Commissioners] Court Minutes, Book 2, pp. 401, 406; "Civil War Letters of John Samuel Shropshire," Nesbitt Memorial Library Journal, vol. 7, no. 1, January 1997, pp. 65, 68. Shropshire's slave was named Bob, Wright's Howell, and Oakes' Mac. The fourth slave, whose name was Ed, was brought into the field by James Carson, who started his military career as a private, but was promoted sergeant two months after he enrolled.

As you can see, those men are not on the muster rolls. Why should they be? Well in 1906, the New Orleans Picayune paper writes about Robert "Bob" Shropshire, one of the slaves. The article is easily accesable, but a book titled Black Southerners in Confederate armies: a collection of historical accounts has it on pg. 187. Among the many things it mentions is that the man was "sworn in and paid monthly by the Confederate Army."p. 187

Now, if that was the case why isn't he on any record other than letters of the era and later interviews with him and men who served next to him?

By the next year 1907, at the time of his death, the Fort Worth Telegram; 12-18-1907 pg.1 death notice section, his name becomes Ben Shropshire. This is the first time I've seen him called by this name, as Ben was the name the brother of his prior owner. Careless statistics could create 2 from one here, but the 2 are indeed one man.

This is one of many many examples I have found regarding the lack of continuity.

Robert Shropshire was a teamster, cook, medic, and an all around hand. My inclination (and this is me supposing, I have no proof and readily admit that) that as they went through hostile Apache territory and encountered Federals, he packed a weapon of some sort.
And what of the other men mentioned as slaves on the campaign. The only record I have seen is in Shropshire's letters...but I doubt he invented them.

[Cincinnati Rebel]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

It won't prove numbers of black Confederate combatants, but the following northern accounts give appropriate witness. I have not seen these posted above.

On December 22, 1861, a minor battle was fought at New market Bridge. There was an account of the incident in the December 28, 1861 New York Herald on page 4, apparently written by a member of the 20th NY:
Account of the Newmarket Bridge Affair:
Gallantry of our German troops
Fortress Monroe, Va. , Dec. 23, 1861.
"The monotony of camp life here at Camp Hamilton was broken yesterday by the intelligence that an action of some magnitude had taken place between a detachment of 150 men of the Twentieth Regiment New York Volunteers, in command of Major Engelbert Schneff, and about seven hundred rebel soldiers. The particulars of the affair are as follows: - Major Schneff having lost a man from his command the day before, left Newport News on Sunday morning at eleven o'clock at the head of one hundred and fifty men, and wended his way towards Newmarket Bridge in search of him. Arriving near the bridge, the Major detailed some of his men to cross the creek, and charged them to search closely in the woods, as the man might have hidden himself from the enemy, who was seen about the place for several days previous. The reserve was placed behind the Newmarket Bridge (that is, where the crossing formerly was), and another detachment at Sinclair's Farm. The position of our men had scarcely been taken up, when the skirmishers of the Twentieth regiment discovered the enemy, consisting of three companies of infantry, among them one company of negroes, who appeared in the front, and made an attack. The left flank was attacked at the same time by two squadrens of cavalry, who came dashing along at a terrible gait and deafening yells. Our men stood their ground manfully, and, as soon as the proper moment came to fire, that cavalry being near enough (about 150 yards), the order to fire was given, and obeyed with alacrity. The reserve drove the cavalry back, killing several of them while retreating."


Another:

"Two miles and a quarter below Yorktown are three rebel forts, on the west side of the Warwick river—in front of one of them Lieutenant Wagoner, of Philadelphia, was killed. Our artillery have shelled them out a number of times, and an encampment in the rear has been so riddled that their barracks have been deserted. They have in these three forts six guns—two in the left one, three in the centre, and one on the right. The dam of the Warwick river runs in front, preventing them from coming over or our pickets from reaching them. The artillery, however, make it so hot that they cannot stay in the forts. In the centre one can be seen, every day, from two to three hundred negroes, with red coats, gray pants and slouch hats, strengthen the work with sand bags, digging ditches, etc. Whenever they dare to come out to fire their artillery, which is simply field artillery, these negroes ram home the [microfilm damaged] with which white men then fire at the hearts of our soldiers. Any one who doubts that the rebels are fighting side by side with their slaves, can be convinced at any hour of the day by going up to the edge of the woods, about twelve hundred yards in front of their works. With the aid of any ordinary glass, the matter can be put beyond room for a doubt."
Pardon that I cannot pinpoint the source of this one at the moment. Maybe some one can find that.

And finally, one from a Union Dr.:
Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission while observing General Stonewall Jackson's occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862 noted:
"Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number Confederate troops. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."

Proof of actual numbers is, as has been stated, not likely to be determined, but too many accounts exist to deny those soldiers their place in history just because it does not fit into people's modern mindset.

One other note on some curious reasoning - in several of the posts some seem to think the 65,000 (or 8000, or any other number for that matter) being discussed are in addition to the total CS forces, and what could have been done with another army of that size. The 65,000 (or whatever number suits the reader) were part of the CS forces, not in addition to them.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Now all that being said, does anyone have any reliable sources that would give a realistic number of blacks that fought Union troops, or photos of black confederate soldiers?

Make of it what you will, but I ran across this photo while searching for checked trousers, of all things. The man in the background looks to me, and to several other posters, like he's African American. Of course the question then is what capacity did he serve in.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Mgreer]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Hank I agree the hair texture and the skin color makes the guy appear to be black. As you state, unfortunately there is nothing that tells us what his given occupation was.

As for Mr. Chastain's post, when Joe Brown used both slaves and free blacks to create the defenses around Atlanta. Some of the masters of master of the said slaves resisted use of their slaves. Thousands of blacks were used. Are these considered black confederates or just a labor force.

I’m not trying to disprove or prove anything I am just looking for reliable sources that proves or disproves LARGE GROUPS OF BLACKS FIGHTING FOR THE CSA.

I am not interested in individuals. Nor am i interested in large numbers of workers or laborers.

Thanks

Marvin

[csabugler]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Speaking of blacks in the ranks, you coming to Westville this weekend?
You know it's a work weekend, right?
Not bringing Woodrow, he hates painting, hard to hold the brush....

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

As for Mr. Chastain's post, when Joe Brown used both slaves and free blacks to create the defenses around Atlanta. Some of the masters of master of the said slaves resisted use of their slaves. Thousands of blacks were used. Are these considered black confederates or just a labor force.

Marvin,

The same issues arose in the Carolinas. Initially it was considered patriotic for a large plantation owner to send his slaves to provide the labor force for the hundreds of fortifications built. Unfortunately the slaves sufferred terribly from camp diseases as well as the pandemic yellow fever and malaria of the coasts for want of proper medical care. The slave workers numbered in the 10s of thousands and they perished by the thousands in the Carolinas alone.

Now in my opinion, the signifcant use of slaves as a labor force to support confederate engineering works contributes to the blurriness of the historical record concerning Black Confederates.

[ewtaylor]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Hank I agree the hair texture and the skin color makes the guy appear to be black. As you state, unfortunately there is nothing that tells us what his given occupation was.

As for Mr. Chastain's post, when Joe Brown used both slaves and free blacks to create the defenses around Atlanta. Some of the masters of master of the said slaves resisted use of their slaves. Thousands of blacks were used. Are these considered black confederates or just a labor force.

I’m not trying to disprove or prove anything I am just looking for reliable sources that proves or disproves LARGE GROUPS OF BLACKS FIGHTING FOR THE CSA.

I am not interested in individuals. Nor am i interested in large numbers of workers or laborers.

Thanks

Marvin

Did you not read the ebook I posted? Here it is again:

http://books.google.com/books?id=5POVMvsdp3MC&pg=PP7&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Look for CHARLES H WESLEY The Employment of Negroes as Soldiers in the Confederate Army p.239 The Journal of Negro History vol. 4, 1919.

[JimKindred]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Folks,

If you are going to post in this thread please provide historical references with citations to document your comments otherwise this thread will be closed.

[Mgreer]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Did you not read the ebook I posted? Here it is again:

http://books.google.com/books?id=5POVMvsdp3MC&pg=PP7&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Look for CHARLES H WESLEY The Employment of Negroes as Soldiers in the Confederate Army p.239 The Journal of Negro History vol. 4, 1919.

Sir,

I read your post the first time, and Carter G. Woodson is recognized in the balck community to be the father of African-American History. He was one of the first black scholors to research black history. That being said, the chapter in question goes agenst my original question. I believe in my original post, and the multiple other posts trying to keep the convo on track, was:

I am just looking for reliable sources that proves or disproves LARGE GROUPS OF BLACKS FIGHTING FOR THE CSA.

I am not interested in individuals. Nor am i interested in large numbers of workers or laborers. I was not interested in News papers accounts because they have their bias nor political speeches.

The Carter G. Woodson piece contained newspaper accounts, accounts of massive numbers of slave and free laborer, and speeches.

So far there have been two people who have provided info and the have the facts to back them up.

Please if you are not posting about large numbers balcks in combat or armed please do not post.

[McKim]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

I am sure you know the photo of confederate troops on campaign marching through Frederick, MD. Look at that photo and think about this.

In 1862, a Northerner, D. Lewis Steiner, was in Frederick, Maryland when Confederate forces over-ran the town. He was a keen, though obviously biased observer of the Confederate troops. As the Rebels fled the town on September 10, he noted: At 4 o'clock this morning the Rebel army began to move from our town, Jackson's force taking the advance. The movement continued until 8 o'clock P.M occupying 16 hours. The most liberal calculation could not give them more than 64,000 men. Over 3,000 negroes must be included in the number... They had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc. They were supplied, in many instances, with knapsacks, haversacks, canteens, etc., and they were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederacy army. They were seen riding on horses and mules, driving wagons, riding on caissons, in ambulances, with the staff of generals and promiscuously mixed up with all the Rebel horde.

I believe it was French Harding that mentioned moving (a short match) east through Frederick to their new camp a few miles outside the city. I believe that (Fall '62) move to a new campsite is what was captured in that photo

In all the time I have looked at that photo, I was never looking for Black troops...but I thought I started to see them. This famous photo may be even more interesting than we thought.

[DougCooper]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

Perhaps it is time we considered why there is no definitive evidence that large (or even smaller) numbers of black men served in the Confederate army as combatants. Maybe it is because it did not happen. As Alexander Stephens opined "if blacks will make good soldiers than our whole theory of slavery is wrong." As has been said many times, the CS govt resisted the idea of enlisting blacks until the very end of the war and those few units are very well documented. It ran against social norms, fears of slave revolt (huge), "property rights" and the very fabric of the nation to give guns to slaves...until defeat was at the door, desertion among white troops was an epidemic and there was no other choice.

So if it was never allowed by the govt before late winter of 65, never mentioned in any official correspondence prior to that, shot down officially prior to that (Cleburne's initiative, etc) and never mentioned by any official capacity in the federal army prior to that (beyond the terribly few reports sighted here)...AND it is given no credence by the most respected historians on the war with thousands of hours of research to back them up...

Why in heck does this subject keep coming up? Guilt? Southern Apology?

In a war where there was no censorship, no real secrecy and voluminous records kept, how does this remain such a secret?

Maybe because it never happened.

What about huge numbers of slaves and some free blacks digging trenches, or supporting their masters in combat units, or cooking, or performing manual labor suddenly has the power to make them combatants? In 1860 there were 4 million blacks in the south, mostly slaves. Who the heck does anyone expect to be the labor force? Its amazing to me, in an army of almost million white men, that folks sieze on the account of this or that slave, seen with a gun or a sword or a knife, or even a company of negroes seen at distance as evidence that 10's of thousands of blacks fought as combatants. As for uniforms....what they heck else might they be wearing if attached to the army? Clothes sent from their plantations? Clothes bought at the local drygoods in Frederick? The only efficient way to supply the cooks, servants, teamsters, laborers, etc was to issue them clothing through the army they traveled with. Recall the uniforms and parts of uniforms worn by the contrabands employed by the Federal army in great numbers at ports, rail yards, supply depots etc. From a short distance they look just like soldiers.

I think this is post #101 on this thread.

[McKim]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

When Mr. Steiner mentions that "The most liberal calculation could not give them more than 64,000 men. Over 3,000 negroes must be included in the number..." my little (sometimes rather dim) light bulb came on and I found...

From "One of Jackson's Foot Cavalry" on page 119

"Gen. Jackson now sent a force ahead to capture Manassas, which was done during the night with small loss to us. Immense quantities of stores were captured with several trains of railroad cars, eight pieces of artillery with caissons and horses, etc., complete, a number of wagons, several hundred prisoners, and several hundred negroes, who had been persuaded to run away from their owners."

Unfortunately, this has clicked that little bulb to the second setting (it's a 3-way) so...to the book shelves.

[Texasbutternut]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

If this book was mentioned already, sorry about that:
"Black Confederates" compiled and edited by Charles K. Barrow, J.H. Segars and R.B. Rosenburg, published 2001 by Pelican.
Lots of good info in this book. I don't have a scanner or copyright permission to post it, but there are photos in the book of lots of documents including the compiled service record cards of Wiley Stewart of the 4th Tennesse Cavalry and "Alexander" of the 24th Texas Cavalry and "Ruben" of the Georgia Sharp Shooters.
Some of my ancestors occasionally were listed by their last names only in some records, and got corrected later. These may have been similar happenings.

back to work ...


texasbutternut

[Busterbuttonboy]

Re: Blacks in the CS Ranks?

While ill certainly explore the book all the way through at first glance its a Pelican book, not LSU, GW or even Vintage. Doesn't appear to be many/any footnotes and most of their sources are from the 1890-1930s.