More on Dinnerware

[Emmanuel Dabney]

As Mrs. Peebles suggested, purchasing some books on the subjects of transferware, ironstone, stoneware, majolica, etc. will assist in this area. However, browsing through eBay today I found some designs that are at least worthy of your looking. (Moderator Note: Again, we are accepting eBay links as long as they are not your personal collection for sale AND if for educational purposes, not bashing!)

An 1850 "Corinthia" Pattern: http://tinyurl.com/3x847q

An 1850's "Genoa" Pattern: http://tinyurl.com/2orutx

1845-1870 "Moss Rose" pattern: http://tinyurl.com/2jazt2

"Washington Vase" pattern: http://tinyurl.com/2klmfw

Set of 12 pink lustre plates: http://tinyurl.com/2snup4

If I remember, I'll take some photos of my own small collection of transferware and lustreware.

[Drygoods]

Re: More on Dinnerware

Indeed Mr. Dabney, all are good. It would be a wonderful thing if we could get people to start using period tableware. I can't think of why a middle class family would have left home with a set of treenware (wood plates), let alone, why they would have purchased tin plate?? Wouldn't they have left home with a crate of the everyday table service that they used, or maybe taken their best plate service in the event that they may be forced to sell it?

Truly folks, consider using period china as your tableware. Reproductions are easily found, even original patterns are selling pretty cheaply, less that sutler's tin plates. Yesterday while waiting in line at a market, I found a copy of Country Sampler Magazine, which had several reproduction lines for redware, yellowware, salt glaze and other styles. (CSM looks like nothing but a big monthly catalogue of businesses that want to sell 'old-timey-folk-art-stuff' with a few articles tossed in for color.

Now, if we could only get people to stop using 20th century flatware, and get away from the mass produced stainless steel:tounge_sm

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: More on Dinnerware

An interesting website I just stumbled across today where yes you can buy, but you can also get an idea of what period flatware looked like: http://www.imperialhalfbushel.com/Co...ceFlatware.htm

Most of the items they have date from 1815-1870 with a good majority being the middle and late part of that span ca. 1825-1870.

Also found this book (don't know if it is actually good or not as I don't own it can there is no peek inside option): American Sterling Silver Flatware 1830's - 1990's: A Collector's Identification and Value Guide by Maryanne Dolan on Amazon.

[Drygoods]

Re: More on Dinnerware

Dear Mr. Dabney,
Thank you for listing that interesting site. I think that many could benefit from it, however, I wish that they had shown the side view of the utensils. This is the easiest, and fastest way of judging the dates of the piece are from the width and shank of the individual piece. Also, it is very hard to judge exactly what pieces are which when you cannot see them lined up next to another. For instance, few can tell the difference between a dinner or a place knife unless they see the two sitting next to each other, the same idea applies to the variations if the knife has a blade shaped as a blunt, old French, new French or modern style. I could go on listing the same sort of references with spoons and forks, but I think that everyone will understand my point.

Another thing I'd suggest, never take your information from one source alone. You really have to read a good number of books/sources before you can be comfortable with making a purchase. I say this because after reading some books on the subject, I found two that particularly were written for the study of eating utensils, and I found errors with both simply because they didn't know/find enough documentation for our period. I feel confident in saying this because sometimes the only way you can see the difference is to actually hold the said piece in your hand or see a group of pieces together with the company catalogue/ or expert dealer/collector.

I'll be honest with all of you, place settings and utensils are not an easy study. I've worked on this subject for four years now and still have questions about pieces that I've inherited that no one can explain or document.

Did any of you know that silver was passed down from Mother to daughter? Silver was one of the 'paraphernalia' items that women could own by English law, consequently, the old laws stayed on the books and often silver would be engraved with the woman's initials and later passed to a daughter or niece without fear of being taxed through the probate &c. The other thing to remember is that often you'd have more than one set of silver, perhaps a breakfast set, tea set, and dinner set.

A funny story though.......
During the CW my family's house was raided by the yankees and all the silver and fence-able/quality items were taken. Sometime after the war, one of the daughters of the family married and after the ceremony the bridegroom presented his new bride and family with his gifts. One of these bridal gifts was the family silver that had been stolen during the war!:confused_ Uh oh, at that point the former favored young man was not so welcome in the brides family. True story. I have that silver now.

[Miss Dixie]

Re: More on Dinnerware

I have found good bargains in my local thrifht store, I once bought a sterling silver turkey platter there for less than $7, have also found good china cups and saucers there also, I use those for Ladies teas and give them to the ladies using them. Sometimes these stores don't know what they have, so it well worth the time to look around there. Where else could you find an old handstitched cotton quilt for $2?

[ElizabethClark]

Re: More on Dinnerware

Diane, what texts or resources are you using to determine what patterns and shapes are appropriate to the era? (Dang, my library request list is getting longer this year, and I'm here asking for more...) And wow--a mid-century quilt for $2?

[Miss Dixie]

Re: More on Dinnerware

Just pictures I see in books, and items I have seen in different homes that I have toured, also what reliable sources tell me, I had a teacup that I got out of a box that my sister had in her yard sale, got it for a friend that collected that particular pattern, was told by a woman that does her homework(she had researched a broken peice of that pattern) told me it was around 1861, then I found the same cup sitting on a shelf in my thrifht store for 99 cents. my friend now has both cups.

[Silvana Siddali]

Re: More on Dinnerware

Judith, I presume when you're asking people to use period dinner ware, you mean repros, don't you? The problem with using antique dishes is that the porcelain or clay dries out after years of non-use, so they tend to crack and break much more easily than modern dishes. It really would be safer to look for good reproductions than to risk a fragile mid-19th century artifact.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, Spode is now reproducing many of their older patterns, though of course you'd have to make sure none of your guests turn over their plates, since there's a modern label on the bottom of each dish. Johnson Bros. is still in business and is still producing the Blue Willow pattern, though I must say their latest version isn't very period-looking. For some reason they muted the blues and enlarged the dinner plates. You can find mid 20th century dishes (e.g., Japanese postwar imports) that have the deep blue & smaller plate sizes of 19th century dinnerware. Also, I love the Meakin Bros. dinner ware, particularly the plain white stone ware and the Tea Leaf pattern, both of which were produced by the Meakin company until well into the 20th century. I don't have images of those ready to hand but when I have a moment I'll photograph some of mine and post them here.

Just to add some info, here are some photos I took when touring the wonderful Arabia exhibit. I really wish I were a better photographer. Unfortunately the exhibits are necessarily dark, and everything is behind glass, so these images aren't the best. But they'll give you an idea of what was au courant in the western territories in the late 1850s.

[Silvana Siddali]

Re: More on Dinnerware

While I was at it, I thought I'd post one or two more images. You can imagine what a stunning experience it is to wander through this exhibit and see thousands of late 'fifties artifacts lined up on shelves, looking pretty much the way they did when they were new. Not to be missed.

[col90]

Re: More on Dinnerware

Diane, what texts or resources are you using to determine what patterns and shapes are appropriate to the era?

This was discussed on another list, although I can't find that right now......as this is one of my minor collections, (although I prefer earlier things that are not appropriate for the table itself.....Rockingham, redware, etc), and I prefer the Flow Blue and Featheredge, I can tell you that the best book to come out in past years on the subject of transferware is this one...."Romantic Staffordshire Ceramics" by Jeffrey Snyder. http://www.amazon.com/Romantic-Staff...e=UTF8&s=books
It is all color, and gives you names of patterns, manufacturers, dates of production, and market value (although it is now out of date on that, it gives an idea). It will help to educate the eye to the "look" that you want, as well as help in collection.

I will second what Silvana said, and hope that unless you are in a historic house setting, that repros are used...I use some of my collection at home, but would not take it out to a setting that would endanger it, since those are now precious, and not easily replaced.

Colleen Formby

[styler]

Devil's in the details

Speaking of Blue Willow... While dating an American Decorative Arts major, one of the tricks I learned to tell true Chinese export stuff from European (and repops) is the fine detail that can be discerned in the design. The Chinese artists were meticulous. The hand-painted patterns and pictures on the 18th and 19th Century material from China is much crisper and showed more detail than the transfer patterned and even the hand-painted designs in the common European pieces.

This sounds very subjective, but in my experience once you see examples side by side it becomes an obvious distinction you will look for on any piece.

I also second the suggestion that original ceramic pieces be reserved as "primary resources" and reproductions be used in the field. The originals are irreplaceable.