For Virginia or Slavery?

[Danny]

Fewer Virginian citizens would have died if Lee had remained loyal to the U.S. and commanded Union forces - true? Lee also felt Slavery an evil institution - true? And Lee rarely provided military support to the other Southern States when they were also invaded - true?

If all cases true than Lee was not particularly honor-bound to the citizens of Virginia, the Right to have slaves, or the the rest of the South. So what did motivate him? It's generally accepted that Lee was honor-bound to the soldiers serving under him. That's admirable but would have been the case whichever army he led. It's also been said Lee saw honor in defending the State of Virginia, The Old Dominion state, the wellspring of a great nation, against the North. Though if you think about it, it would have been just as honorable for him to retake Virginia and defend it from the Secessionists. At least other notable Virginian Commanders felt that way.

Let's not speculate that Lee was more bound to his personal Virginian heritage (the Lees and Washingtons) than any of the above causes. How could he have justified for himself the human sacrifice that he knew would come as he discarded his U.S. oath for such a cause?

- Dan Wykes

[ley74]

Re: For Virginia or Slavery?

He did.

BTW, the Washington connection was through his wife's side of the family.

"On June 30, 1831, while serving as Second Lieutenant of Engineers at Fort Monroe, Virginia, he married Mary Ann Randolph Custis of Arlington. Mary was the only daughter of George Washington Parke Custis, the grandson of Martha Washington and the adopted grandson of George Washington. Robert E. Lee shared his father's reverence for the memory of the General and that bond with the Father of our Country served as an inspiration throughout Lee's life."

[Dan Munson]

Re: For Virginia or Slavery?

My comments/observations on your questions, Mr. Wykes:

1) "Fewer Virginian citizens would have died if Lee had remained loyal to the U.S. and commanded Union forces - true?" Probably true. This is based on the assumption that the war would have been shortened by having Lee as a Union army commander. 20/20 hindsight tells us that very likely may have been the case, but who can know for certain? Remember that Lee's first field command in the war did not result in sterling success. It wasn't until after Joe Johnston's wounding in Spring 1862 that Lee got another chance at field command. In the Seven Days he was ultimately successful in driving back McClellan, but that result was achieved in spite of numerous mistakes, mis-marches and misunderstanding of orders by subordinates. And he was aided to no little extent by McClellan's less than brilliant handling of the Federal withdrawal. The point here being that a "Federal" Lee could have been easily thwarted by bungling subordinates and then sidelined, perhaps to return later in the war and rise to prominence...and perhaps not.

2) "Lee also felt Slavery an evil institution - true?" From what I recall of my reading, Lee was not among the strongest supporters of the institution. Perhaps you know of a directly supportive quotation from Lee, but absent such a statement, I don't think he perceived it as "evil." That state of mind would have - gasp! - put him on a level with Garrison et al. Perhaps "unfortunate" would be a better term, as that would put him in company of a great many other Americans of his day (Lincoln included), who would have preferred that slavery had never existed, but were resigned to the fact that it DID exist....and morever had been extended certain legal protections by the Founders.

3) "And Lee rarely provided military support to the other Southern States when they were also invaded - true?" Very true that he strenuously resisted several suggestions from J. Davis that the ANV might detach troops to aid other CSA commanders. It took a rather peremptory directive from Davis to pry loose Longstreet's corps to reinforce Bragg.

4) "It's also been said Lee saw honor in defending the State of Virginia, The Old Dominion state, the wellspring of a great nation, against the North. Though if you think about it, it would have been just as honorable for him to retake Virginia and defend it from the Secessionists. At least other notable Virginian Commanders felt that way." Yes, "defending Virginia" has been put forth as a major, perhaps the PRINCIPAL, reason for Lee's decision to resign his federal commission and accept (initially) a commission in Virginia's militia. Yes, Lee could have adopted the same mind-set as George Thomas and some other southerners in the Federal army and navy, namely that their oath to the nation transcended any "loyalty" to a particular state. But obviously, in a time when many people still thought locally ("I am a Pennsylvanian") first, and nationally ("I am an American") second, many other intelligent officers had no trouble at all seeing a primary allegiance to their home state. Yes, liberating his state from secessionists could have been a way for Lee to rationalize fighting for the Union. But doing so would lead him to directly fight against other Virginians and very probably destroy some portion of Virginia property. Some nationally-thinking southerners in the military could sublimate that distasteful probability in performance of thier duty. Many other locally-thinking southern-born soldiers could not make that leap, and Lee was simply among this latter class.

[Old Cremona]

Re: For Virginia or Slavery?

Dan,

That was a very thoughful reply to a post which is, as you point, heavily based on opinion and supposition. Such opinion-heavy rants are in no way useful on a research-based forum, and I really don't know why they are tolerated.

[Jubilo]

Re: For Virginia or Slavery?

Dear Sir ,
A complicated question made more complicated because most want to admire Lee. Virginia was Virginia ( albeit a Crown Colony ) for longer than it was a U.S. State , however , The Articles of Confederation state that the Union was perpetual. If Lee was a hero to Tidewater Virginians he was a traitor and abandoned the western counties . Is this a money issue ? Seems he drew his sword in defense of Virginia to bring fire and sword to Virginians . How ironic he was not successful in his "West Virginia " campaign ( and against Little Mac !!!!) . Money talks and I think Lee listened . Although he was unpropertied and not weathly until he married he obviously identified and desired to be among the Carters etc. the First Families of Virginia . He would be more unblemished if he were not but he was human and he wanted more. Remeber he admonished his son to never refuse a promotion under any circumstances. Remember , we dealing with the no merit West Pointer and if anything else , the Civl War taught of the bad behavior of the alumni and the need to have the word "gentleman " written on their commissions . Their conduct proves otherwise. Lee was human and mortal . He was still a great general with many superb human qualities.
all for the old flag ,
David Corbett
P.S. His hero and model was Washington ; did he think George would smile on his resignation ?

[Danny]

Re: For Virginia or Slavery?

...From what I recall of my reading, Lee was not among the strongest supporters of the institution. Perhaps you know of a directly supportive quotation from Lee, but absent such a statement, I don't think he perceived it as "evil..."

Mr. Munson -

Thank you for your very thoughtful reply. Here's that quote, from Lee's personal letters circa 1856: "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil..."

As you know the most prevalent opinion and supposition out there (heavily based on opinion but light on research) is that Lee took the most honorable path open to him and that he was a brilliant military strategist for the Confederacy. I appreciate your analysis: Whatever else Robert E. Lee was, he was a man of his time and place who probably felt he was doing the most honorable thing for Virginia and the most strategic thing for the Confederate cause.

- Dan Wykes

[ley74]

Re: For Virginia or Slavery?

Frankly, your original and subsequent post appear to be allegorical suppositions. There are many sources to research the thought process of Lee. You have apparently read some of his correspondence. This should actually tell you quite a bit.

Any student of the American Civil War, Virginian or not, realizes Lee had his faults and shortcomings. You seem to want to pick a fight for no good reason whatsoever. Why do you care if folks want to admire Lee? He had a number of admirable qualities. Many military institutions study Lee for his brilliance and ineptitude on the field of battle.

This is a waste of bandwidth.

[Danny]

Re: For Virginia or Slavery?

...Yes, Lee could have adopted the same mind-set as George Thomas and some other southerners in the Federal army and navy, namely that their oath to the nation transcended any "loyalty" to a particular state...

Dan M. -

Please oblige me a thought on that...

Union Commanders Scott, Thomas, and Farragut were Virginians. You could just as fairly say that their loyalty to their particular state was not transcended by their oath to the nation - in fact it supported it.

- Dan Wykes

[Charles Heath]

Re: For Virginia or Slavery?

Much like Thomas' likeness turned to the wall in his family home, the lock goes on this thread after a number of complaints. Thank you for smacking the alert button around a little.