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Daniel Wykes ("Danny") and I have been continuing a conversation backchannel regarding the changes and improvements that need to be made to the Republic Guitars "parlor" guitar. I've decided to post these conversations here, both to continue both the exchange publicly, and solicit any insights that others may contribute.
There was an earlier thread that addressed the Republic guitar in passing, but it was hampered by being too old (started in March 2007) and only touched upon the changes that should be made. This thread is intended to address the Republic guitar specifically, as it seems to be the ONLY guitar on the market that is a close match "out of the box" to the standard guitar available in the 1860s and could be improved to become a more exact match..
As backgournd, I'm including Danny's original assessment of the Republic guitar from a post in 2007:
"In short, it's a reproduction of an 1846 pattern but braced for and equipped with steel strings. But I believe given the response with the steels that gut or Nylgut(R) will be ok on this guitar without shaving the braces. Overall size, scale are appropriate for 1846 and the neck thickness not far off. The fretboard is properly flat as well (non-radiused). The tuning machines and frets are high quality but alas, not all brass. A plus is that there is no truss rod cover after all. The headstock imprint is a decal so it would easily be removed. There is no strap button either end of the body - I suppose that's ok for a copy of a period guitar."
The guitar I received has a strap button, and enclosed tuning gears, but the former can be replaced easily with a button that is common to current classical guitars. The tuning machinea are another matter.
The first of these conversations regards the replacement of the enclosed stainless steel Kluson type tuners with more period appropriate ones.
********************** My post ************************
I've been doing a bit of research regarding the tuning machines. All classical machines have 10mm ivory or "mahogany" tuning barrels. The Republic Kluson version is nickle plated steel, about half that thickness, which seems to be the standard size of the "folk" or steel string tuning machines availble on the market currently, all of which also have the nickle plated steel barrel. Further, the distance between the axis of the tuning barrel shafts is a constant 35mm, regardless of whether the set is classical or folk, and the set screws seem to be a constant size as well. Which leads me to believe that other parts may be interchangable between the two.
What I am considering doing is buying one set of each, classical and folk, and swapping only the tuning barrel and gear assemblies, thus installing the plated steel barrels in the classical planks. Assuming that the tolerances are the same, my main concern is the gear ratios, which are all over the place, from 13:1 to 18:1. I don't know if only the shaft gear varies, and that all tuner worms remain the same, or if they have to be matched sets to work. I would not like to use the tuner worms from the "folk" sets, as they are universally steel, and have crappy buttons at that. A minor concern is that the distances between mounting holes varies. Honestly, I'd almost rather drill new holes rather than use the existing ones and thereby gain a new, solid purchase. But, if the gear ratios are a problem, or the tolerances are incompatible, that point is moot.
Do you have any experience with the above boondoggle? This is challenging to say the least.
*********************Danny's Response*********************
When I've asked about period metal fabrication I've been told nickel plating and steel gears are in venue for the period. That being the case, it's also the case that standardization of parts was only just then being implemented by Colt, for firearms. Musical instrument hardware was not yet to that level of standardization, so plated thinner metal plates and steel gears are not out of the question.
There were many makers of such hardware and not all are documented so no one in the CW camp could deny them based on an inspection alone. Only a luthier or museum docent could rightly make the challenge. Are many of them reenactors?
For specific period guitar brands, Martin for one, you would have to have a close reproduction of a particular tuner set, but for some undocumented minor guitar maker or importer at the time - which is our claim for these Republic / Fullerton guitars - almost any pattern for the hardware might reasonably pass for period in appearance if you remove any Phillips screws. So that's why I'm keeping the open gear set on my Republic. I'll sand off the mold lines on the dark shell buttons so they appear as genuine shell, also a period material that was used on guitars at the time, though primarily for other parts of the guitar. My story is that shell buttons were ordered for this guitar and again, no one in the field could deny that.
If your guitar has the enclosed gear sets, you'd have to replace those and yes, quite often in my experience with amateur guitar repair, the ring gears and the ring gear axle are often interchangeable - probably only one or two Asian manufacturers that supply a dozen brands here. I'd be surprised if the barrel mount wasn't also interchangeable but don't know for sure.
All the new hardware uses metric threads, but who would know? Brass ring gears are a norm but I don't know if you can find brass worm gears, which you would have to pry out from their plate mount to swap. Not a priority for me since steel gears were a technology of the time and I wouldn't risk the functionality of the mount by bending it out then back in.
************************************************** ******
At this point, I'll be ordering the sets of tuning machines to see what can be swapped, and discover any other issues regarding installation. Both of us will be experimenting with different nyl-gut and gut strings to see what works best on the guitar for both appearance and playability.
Anyone who has insights or comments, again, is welcome to post.
There was an earlier thread that addressed the Republic guitar in passing, but it was hampered by being too old (started in March 2007) and only touched upon the changes that should be made. This thread is intended to address the Republic guitar specifically, as it seems to be the ONLY guitar on the market that is a close match "out of the box" to the standard guitar available in the 1860s and could be improved to become a more exact match..
As backgournd, I'm including Danny's original assessment of the Republic guitar from a post in 2007:
"In short, it's a reproduction of an 1846 pattern but braced for and equipped with steel strings. But I believe given the response with the steels that gut or Nylgut(R) will be ok on this guitar without shaving the braces. Overall size, scale are appropriate for 1846 and the neck thickness not far off. The fretboard is properly flat as well (non-radiused). The tuning machines and frets are high quality but alas, not all brass. A plus is that there is no truss rod cover after all. The headstock imprint is a decal so it would easily be removed. There is no strap button either end of the body - I suppose that's ok for a copy of a period guitar."
The guitar I received has a strap button, and enclosed tuning gears, but the former can be replaced easily with a button that is common to current classical guitars. The tuning machinea are another matter.
The first of these conversations regards the replacement of the enclosed stainless steel Kluson type tuners with more period appropriate ones.
********************** My post ************************
I've been doing a bit of research regarding the tuning machines. All classical machines have 10mm ivory or "mahogany" tuning barrels. The Republic Kluson version is nickle plated steel, about half that thickness, which seems to be the standard size of the "folk" or steel string tuning machines availble on the market currently, all of which also have the nickle plated steel barrel. Further, the distance between the axis of the tuning barrel shafts is a constant 35mm, regardless of whether the set is classical or folk, and the set screws seem to be a constant size as well. Which leads me to believe that other parts may be interchangable between the two.
What I am considering doing is buying one set of each, classical and folk, and swapping only the tuning barrel and gear assemblies, thus installing the plated steel barrels in the classical planks. Assuming that the tolerances are the same, my main concern is the gear ratios, which are all over the place, from 13:1 to 18:1. I don't know if only the shaft gear varies, and that all tuner worms remain the same, or if they have to be matched sets to work. I would not like to use the tuner worms from the "folk" sets, as they are universally steel, and have crappy buttons at that. A minor concern is that the distances between mounting holes varies. Honestly, I'd almost rather drill new holes rather than use the existing ones and thereby gain a new, solid purchase. But, if the gear ratios are a problem, or the tolerances are incompatible, that point is moot.
Do you have any experience with the above boondoggle? This is challenging to say the least.
*********************Danny's Response*********************
When I've asked about period metal fabrication I've been told nickel plating and steel gears are in venue for the period. That being the case, it's also the case that standardization of parts was only just then being implemented by Colt, for firearms. Musical instrument hardware was not yet to that level of standardization, so plated thinner metal plates and steel gears are not out of the question.
There were many makers of such hardware and not all are documented so no one in the CW camp could deny them based on an inspection alone. Only a luthier or museum docent could rightly make the challenge. Are many of them reenactors?
For specific period guitar brands, Martin for one, you would have to have a close reproduction of a particular tuner set, but for some undocumented minor guitar maker or importer at the time - which is our claim for these Republic / Fullerton guitars - almost any pattern for the hardware might reasonably pass for period in appearance if you remove any Phillips screws. So that's why I'm keeping the open gear set on my Republic. I'll sand off the mold lines on the dark shell buttons so they appear as genuine shell, also a period material that was used on guitars at the time, though primarily for other parts of the guitar. My story is that shell buttons were ordered for this guitar and again, no one in the field could deny that.
If your guitar has the enclosed gear sets, you'd have to replace those and yes, quite often in my experience with amateur guitar repair, the ring gears and the ring gear axle are often interchangeable - probably only one or two Asian manufacturers that supply a dozen brands here. I'd be surprised if the barrel mount wasn't also interchangeable but don't know for sure.
All the new hardware uses metric threads, but who would know? Brass ring gears are a norm but I don't know if you can find brass worm gears, which you would have to pry out from their plate mount to swap. Not a priority for me since steel gears were a technology of the time and I wouldn't risk the functionality of the mount by bending it out then back in.
************************************************** ******
At this point, I'll be ordering the sets of tuning machines to see what can be swapped, and discover any other issues regarding installation. Both of us will be experimenting with different nyl-gut and gut strings to see what works best on the guitar for both appearance and playability.
Anyone who has insights or comments, again, is welcome to post.
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