Correct guitar playing.

[csabugler]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

I have long said that one cannot more accurately recreate any aspect of history more so than playing period arrangements on period instruments in the style thought to be correct for the period. If done so it would be nearly identical to the original.

[dedogtent]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

Great, John, I have a few other inquires, so I will keep on Tim 'til he knocks out a little booklet of tabs. I think there's a real need for accurate guitar music in this wing of the hobby.

Carl,

Not taking anything away from Tim but, I would be thrilled if you thought about a tab book yourself. I just love the way you play that ole banjo. I'm sure I won't be your only customer. Think about it my friend.

[Old Cremona]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

I have long said that one cannot more accurately recreate any aspect of history more so than playing period arrangements on period instruments in the style thought to be correct for the period. If done so it would be nearly identical to the original.

I quite agree, Patrick. It certaintly is the best way to go if you're picky about how you approach living history. And although there could be and probably are some differences in their sound and ours, these aren't "deal breakers" by any means. Each player will always sound like him/herself, and that's the way it's supposed to be; it's art, fer pete's sake. But an eight note will always be an eight note, and a dotted sixteenth rest will always be what it is. Music notation is a very specific science, and it's ability to capture a musicians ideas is considerable.

Carl,

Not taking anything away from Tim but, I would be thrilled if you thought about a tab book yourself. I just love the way you play that ole banjo. I'm sure I won't be your only customer. Think about it my friend.

Thanks John, that's very kind, I just may do that.

Minstrel style banjo has gotten popular in the hobby, partially due to its "exotic" sound, low and tubby, compared to the modern sound. Fingerstyle guitar hasn't necessairly changed all that much, but can still just as useful in "setting the mood" at the right event. I'd love to play some minstrel banjo with some correct fingerstyle guitar.

[Danny]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

... I would be very interested in any tabs on civil war music, guitar especially. I recently purchased one of those republic guitars...I have a old tape by a person who claimed to have been taught civil war guitar by his father, who was in turn taught by his father, who was taught by his father who played a Martin guitar in the civil war... By the way he plays it on the same guitar as his civil war ancestor did.curtis payne

Curtis - any chance you could make an mp3 or wma from that tape, a section of it perhaps, and make it available?

Dan Wykes

[spondulix]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

I am not sure if I can do so without breaking copyright laws. But I will see about having the person giving me permission to do so, or permission to tell you who he is and how you might contact him.


Anyway what do you think of the idea of a song or songs being handed down from one generation to the next and played as they were learned by the last generation. I think his is the 4th in line.
curtis payne

[Danny]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

...Anyway what do you think of the idea of a song or songs being handed down from one generation to the next and played as they were learned by the last generation. I think his is the 4th in line. curtis payne

Curtis -

That's known as the folk music tradition and many Antebellum and CW period songs, including professional stage Minstrel songs of the time, did enter the folk music tradition and were passed on via the oral, and the aural, tradition rather than as the transcripted music they started as.

In the early 20th century music researchers had found and recorded, in the isolated Appalachians, original music and songs from 17th century England that were more pure to the original form than any they could find in England itself (watch the movie Songcatcher, based on that true incident) That same vector is certainly possible for this mid-19th Century guitar piece you reference.

True enough, in this particular forum, the folk tradition isn't much trusted. As with other aspects of CW campaign practice, there is a bottom line as to what should be considered accurate evidence.

Still, to be allowed a personal opinion, I feel reconstructing this music from transcripts only denies the human passion factor, the soul, of this music as performed. The human factor was better captured in early 19th century recorded renditions performed by people who lived in that earlier period, even if they were children at the time -- or by the aural folk music tradition passed down in the manner you describe.

In any event, then as now, we know performers put their own edge to the music, even in Classical music. Case in point: listen to any three performances of "Pachabel Canon in D", all presumably from the same original transcript. You will be amazed at the variation. So how much more is the case that non-classical and popular music of the mid-19th century had as much or more variation from transcript.

Dan Wykes

[Old Cremona]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

Well, I knew that "Danny" would eventually hijack my thread to highlight his own personal preferences for music in the hobby, but I think it's worth it to dissemble some examples of guitar music from documented period sources. Tim is finishing up a series of tabs from these sources, and I think the authentic wing of the hobby will appreciate them.

I feel reconstructing this music from transcripts only denies the human passion factor, the soul, of this music

I feel a very powerful "passion factor" as I listen to Tim play this music. In fact, it touches my soul quite deeply, on a number of levels, artistic and historical. That is kind of the whole idea behind this thread.

[Danny]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

...I feel a very powerful "passion factor" as I listen to Tim play this music. In fact, it touches my soul quite deeply, on a number of levels, artistic and historical. That is kind of the whole idea behind this thread.

Carl -

I would agree, Tim playing these tunes on his modern steel-string guitar doesn't lessen the passion and skill of his playing. I was referring to transcripts, not Tim's playing. His playing touches my soul as well*, and thanks for posting the video. Tim even displays a period-style guitar at the end-- as you stated, the point was the playing, not the guitar.

On the rest I'm trying to understand your point: there's value in discussing Civil War era music passed on via modern steel-string guitar performance and modern guitar tabulature, but not in discussing Civil War music passed on via the folk/aural tradition or early recordings by people who had lived in the CW? Curtis brought up the aural tradition in post #13 so I thought it was OK to explore it.

Dan Wykes

*btw so does your playing

[Old Cremona]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

Carl -

I would agree, Tim playing these tunes on his modern steel-string guitar doesn't lessen the passion and skill of his playing. I was referring to transcripts, not Tim's playing.

Transcripts, or in this case guitar tabulature, does not inherently have any less "passion factor" or soul than sheet music. Tab just tell you where to put your fingers, without actually telling you what the note is. It is a modern creation, to be sure, but it's purpose here is to help the non music-reader learn authentic 1850's and 60's guitar music. Once the tune is memorized, the user is done with the tab and he/she has something wonderful and beautiful to share with fellow living historians.

On the rest I'm trying to understand your point: there's value in discussing Civil War era music passed on via modern steel-string guitar performance and modern guitar tabulature, but not in discussing Civil War music passed on via the folk/aural tradition or early recordings by people who had lived in the CW? Curtis brought up the aural tradition in post #13 so I thought it was OK to explore it.

You know as well as I do that the folk/aural tradition is viewed as secondary (or third-dairy) around here, and period documentation is regarded as most important. There is a want of discussion on the subject of correct period guitar; that's why I started this thread. If you want to lecture folk/aural tradition, why not start another thread about that topic?

[toccoa42]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

You know as well as I do that the folk/aural tradition is viewed as secondary (or third-dairy) around here, and period documentation is regarded as most important. There is a want of discussion on the subject of correct period guitar; that's why I started this thread. If you want to lecture folk/aural tradition, why not start another thread about that topic?

Granted, we have sheet music, and guitar instruction books surviving from the period. But in a great way, we will have no choice but to rely upon folk/aural tradition. There is no recorded music from the Civil War, obviously, and those recordings of people playing what they played then were recorded long after they played them during the Civil War. I've been playing on and off for more than 30 years and my style has changed several times in that period, and sometimes drastically. So I can never say that what I play now is exactly like what I played 30 years ago.

And besides, instruction even from the great masters was handed down from teacher to student. I'm reminded of a scene from an old Richard Dreyfus/Amy Irving movie "The Competition", where Lee Remick plays Irving's piano master:

"Beethoven taught so and so, who taught so and so, who taught so and so, who taught so and so, who taught me. So she stands 6th in a direct line from the great master."

Or words to that effect. How else do you learn from the great masters?

Secondary or whatever it may be, folk/aural still valid, and is applied in it's own fashion even in the classical world.

[toccoa42]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

If you want to lecture folk/aural tradition, why not start another thread about that topic?

Agreed. Back to the original topic:

Does Tim have any ETA on the tab book?

[Old Cremona]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

So I can never say that what I play now is exactly like what I played 30 years ago.

No, but if you wrote down what you played thirty years ago, in a way that could be deciphered 150 years hence, someone would have a very good idea of what you were doing. A better idea than what great-gramma told them about what their gramma told them about what you were playing.:D

[Danny]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

... If you want to lecture folk/aural tradition, why not start another thread about that topic?

That's Curtis' call... for now I'd be more interested in tabs for period (classic) guitar technique, from an actual guitar instructor like Tim.

Dan Wykes

[David Swarens]

Re: Correct guitar playing.

Hello.

I also think a "tab" book would be of great value for many, especially those of us to lazy to acquire a great proficiency in music literacy.

Several points I would like to add to the discussion.

As Carl mentions, the oral transmission is more significant in folklore than in history, only assuredly telling us what people believe happened, rather than what actually happened, although they may certainly be one and the same.

It is what would be considered "hearsay" in a court of law, unless corroborated by other evidence.
The modern game of "telephone" comes to mind as a model, where repeated information may change in sometimes amusing ways as it is shared around a circle and back to its source.

A good example of (oral) transmission, which has retained integrity, to my ear, is the "Spanish Fandango" which has had a very long life, and in traditional performance still sounds very much like presented in mid 19th century methods.

I think players like Elizabeth Cotton represent(ed) a true and strong link to earlier manners of playing.

So traditional, oral transmission MAY be a very legitimate tool interpreting past practice, but by itself should probably not be relied on, except in the absence of other documents, when it then is the "best" available option.
A friend of ours uses traditional practice, especially from the Islamic world, to inform his interpretation of medieval Spanish manuscripts, in a very thoughtful manner, where there is little else to guide "how" the pieces were played.

And we use 20th century New Mexican practice as one guide for our interpretation of music in 19th century California. (We have documented shared repertoire and linguistic traditions, and also have a body of 1904 Edison wax cylinder recordings of older Spanish speaking Californians as a “primary” document, along with other sources).

As for strumming, I doubt that showed up much in the 19th century; the debate was between picking the strings with nail of flesh, not manner of attacking the strings.

"Strumming," I understand, was used, at least some, in the Baroque period, generally on instruments quite different from the "modern" guitar that starts to solidify in form in the early 19th century (six (single) strings, same tuning as at present, flat back, metal frets, etc.)

Best wishes on more material, more easily available, to more people!

Yours,
David Swarens