ROLL-io...

[Danny]

Re: ROLL-io...

I dunno if I'd count those in the same category as Nelson's Blood or as sea shanties...Columbia the Gem of the Ocean came from the stage...It's not what I'd call a sailor's song or sea shanty by any means...The Negro Boatman's Song not a British sailing folk origin, and I don't think are close enough to the British sailor's background of Nelson's Blood to show much...Banner of the Sea wasn't a song I was familiar with ...but it looks like a song specifically written as a tribute to the US Navy, again not a folk-like homegrown song among sailors...I don't think the fact that those songs were sung by soldiers or the general public necessarily indicates one way or the other about sea chanties and/or Nelson's Blood. Something like Mrs. McGrath strikes me as more of a close parallel to Nelson's Blood--any evidence of it being sung by soldiers and/or inland civilians...Hank Trent

Hank, somewhat moot points. At the time there was no such distinction in the popular repertoire. If the content of surviving songbooks and sheet music for piano and voice isn't enough for you, there are a few publications on the topic of popular music in the 19th century which attest to the gregarious swapping of music genres in the melting pot of the U.S. at that time. To claim use of these songs by categories established in later academia is a modernism.

Dan Wykes

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: ROLL-io...

Danny, please see my pm in response to yours. The only point that seems relevant to share here is that if I can document Italian arias, German hiking songs, and Negro spirituals to the war, you ought to be able to come up with something similar for shanties. Until you do, I don't think other rationalizations will work for those who post on this forum. Once you do, I would like to be the first to congratulate you.

[Hank Trent]

Re: ROLL-io...

Hank, somewhat moot points. At the time there was no such distinction in the popular repertoire. If the content of surviving songbooks and sheet music for piano and voice isn't enough for you, there are a few publications on the topic of popular music in the 19th century which attest to the gregarious swapping of music genres in the melting pot of the U.S. at that time. To claim use of these songs by categories established in later academia is a modernism.

But you brought them up as examples of the same type as Nelson's Blood: "sailor's songs (some shantys by our modern retrospect)."

You can't have it both ways, claiming that since soldiers knew some sailor's songs so they probably sang Nelson's Blood, and then claiming that it doesn't matter if they're really sailor's songs or not.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Danny]

Re: ROLL-io...

...You can't have it both ways...
Hank Trent

Hank - Not two ways, two aspects of one way. It's reasonable that since soldiers knew some sailor's songs some probably knew and sang Nelson's Blood. It doesn't matter if they're really sailor's songs or not (whether later academics classified them as shantys or not). If a sailor sang it, he sang it. Nothing to split hairs over.

Anyway, if you missed it,I've already stated I'm willing to abandon that reasoning in deference to stronger opinions. Let's have it that "Nelson's Blood" was not sung by soldiers.

I think we've covered the topic well enough, boys, too much made of a small question, can we clip it here?

Dan Wykes

[OldKingCrow]

Re: ROLL-io...

After response to PM's from several folks including myself, you just will not let it lay, will you Danny ? But more importantly you still miss or refuse to see the point.

The point is not Nelson's Blood, though we will touch on that shortly, it is your insistence (in this community) to assign your views of "reasonableness" in lieu of firm historical support or even empirical evidence on matters, this of course is in between the time you take denigrate the efforts of this community.

Empirically speaking on Nelson's Blood my experience leads me to skepticism of a 55+ year old tune from another nations navy, making its way to be so widespread in popular Southern culture (in particular rural inland areas) yet there is no record (or none I find or that has been posted) in the form of musical notation, copyrighting etc or other historical provenance to the ACW.

My gut tells me it has made it way into mainstream CW culture and perhaps these lads you speak of (this was a streamer event Danny, no ?) by virtue of its being recorded by a mainstream band and sold at those events and furthermore by a Punk Rock bootleg in modern culture.

Clearly things not in the scope of this community.

I will be waiting for your PM telling me how I am all wrong on this. Then more posts here.

[Danny]

Re: ROLL-io...

Punk Rock bootlegs?

Further appropriate discussion would require a baseline understanding of traditional songs in American 19th Century culture. (Traditional songs were not profitable to publish separately because they could not be copyrighted by publishers; Ditson, Pond etc).

In this thread, I had a little question about a song and that was answered. As I stated before I think we can let it go now... thanks again, Nick.

Dan Wykes

[OldKingCrow]

Re: ROLL-io...

In this thread, I had a little question about a song and that was answered. As I stated before I think we can let it go now... thanks again, Nick.

Dan Wykes

Actually your "little question" pointed out it was sung by "CS campaigners" which implies a history heavy, research based approach and you labeled it a period tune

Galvanized with banjo for about 20 minutes with a Reb campaigner mess this past weekend; they given to song (to great effect) and one period song in particular with the refrain, something to the effect "We'll ROLL-io, and olli, olli- o..."

Can anybody here recognize and give me a name for that song? Thx ahead.

Dan Wykes

When on further discovery thus far, there is no support other than your assignment of "reasonable probability" of it being PEC in the ACW ranks.

It is yet another example of how you twist things around and all I am asking is to please hold off on doing that here. You have made valuable, appreciated contributions that are history rich when you want to and I have appreciated your posts and direct help before, but when you take a notion to bolster unsupported mainstreamisms it is very annoying in this forum.

From a early banjo or musical historical perspective would you not agree that there is a bounty of correct songs, with direct provenance to the period, most of which convey particular aspects of the culture which are not only beneficial to social in sights of the time, but also quite entertaining as well. As such there really is no need to show up in the leopard skin trousers that Nelson's Blood to this point is proven to be ?