Rebel Songs in Federal Camp

[Danny]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

...You find old songs with great lyrics by going through old songsters which are posted online...

How true. And nice job, Mark, on that songster at

http://www.zipcon.net/~silas/Drill/songster.htm.

and if missed on a prior thread, here's a period song book written from Union perpective "TRUMPET OF FREEDOM" at

http://groups.google.com/group/Albert-Baur?hl=en

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

After posting I was done in the music forums I r'cvd a PM that set me to thinking ...if we lose posters down here there are so few who post and are into the period music it leaves a void based on the numbers alone....so I am gwine to teach my friend Danny to fish

The CSS Alabama was sunk in June of 1864. Aside from Troy's spot on points about Union / rebellion songs and the lack of supporting documention, what is the likelihood of a song about the sinking of ship on the other side of the world being written, printed and distributed to be so widely known it is sung on campaign in the remaining 10 months or so of the war ?

The first known provenance I know of to the song is in the 1900's.

Two minutes and search could show you this.

Now say you are doing a serious, non-FIRPER Naval Living History on the CSS Alabama. Could you as part of the presented support information on the sinking mention or sing this song which clearly shares historical details...I sure think so with the proper caveat.

Would I sing it as Federal at a Chickamauga event ? Not under any circumstance. See the difference.

[Danny]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

I'm curious if anyone has studied one possible source for seeing what folk or traditional songs that were popular: the tunes used when people wrote new words.

Seems the whole point of writing new words to an old tune is that most people know the old tune so they don't need to learn a new one...
Hank Trent

Hank -

"Roll, Alabama, Roll" (1864, lyrics attb. Frank Townsend) is a classic example of that. It was sung to the tune of "Roll The Cotton Down" a familiar Southern longshoreman's work song melody.

Northerners marked the event as well with "The Sinking Of The Alabama" (1864, lyrics Silas S. Steele esq.) to the tune of the traditional song "Teddy The Tiler."

It appears as though if profit was to be gained from a timely event, a good strategy was to leverage a familiar melody from the traditional sector rather than compose new music. Not everybody was a Root or Foster. More typical examples of the practice are the melody of "Rosin the Beau" for "Lincoln and Liberty", or "Oh, Tannenbaum" for "Maryland, My Maryland."

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[Old Cremona]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Bob -

I think the standard here is that without documentation a particular song was actually sung by a soldier or a unit, we don't sing it.



Dan Wykes

Say what? Who the h-e-double-hockey-stick ever said all tunes must be documented to a specific unit or soldier? You make us sound like a bunch of fussy old grannies.

Oh, yeah, this is Danny. That explains it.

It's all really so simple, singing documentated and popular songs and styles, you wouldn't think we'd have to muck up an AC forum with it. This thread reminds me of dozens of old threads on the other forum, before a certain change cleared that problem up.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Hank -

"Roll, Alabama, Roll" (1864, lyrics attb. Frank Townsend) is a classic example of that. It was sung to the tune of "Roll The Cotton Down" a familiar Southern longshoreman's work song melody.

Dan Wykes

Do you have anything credible other than a sole "civilwar.com" reference ?

I really am not asking to be a jerk or disprove you, I am trying to prove that Townsend, who was indeed a CS Seaman and rescued by the English ship Deerhound penned it. As popular as the cry Roll Alabama Roll ! is and connected to UA, one would think there would be a clear path of provenance.

CR

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

It's interesting that there's no reference to the phrase "Roll Alabama Roll" on Google Books prior to 1939.

In fact, the earliest reference to the song "Roll the cotton down" on Google Books comes from a work published in 1899.

In this reference: http://css-alabama.com/crew.html Frank Townsend is the only crew member about whom there's no information.

While the Alabama went down in June, it took a few weeks for the information to become well known in the U.S. (I found this out in doing research on the battle of Washington in July 1864). I wonder how quickly a "shanty" based on this incident would become popularly known.

[Danny]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]It's interesting that there's no reference to the phrase "Roll Alabama Roll" on Google Books prior to 1939

Michael -

In my opinion, internet sources like Google books and civilwar.com are excellent for a start, but there's a mountain of source material that isn't on the internet yet. Reference on songs passed via aural/oral tradition requires a deeper dive (pun :)). The beauty of Google books is that for out-of-copyright books you can view all the pages, including the back pages, for free. You write down some of the source books cited on the back pages, then go to your local inter-library loan desk and have those often obscure books searched, found, and sent to you.

Some of these books may come up only as reference copies in which case you may have to arrange your vacation schedule and visit a Library on-site. And if it's a book you must own, a quick search in Amazon.com may turn up a used copy from an associated book store anywhere in the Country.

You and I know this, but some here have not had to write a paper since high school, and might not be aware that in scholarly settings internet cites are only acceptable when a paper or microfilm copy isn't setting on a shelf somewhere. Hank sets the bar on this forum in this regard, imho.

This is getting away from topic Reb Songs in Camp, I'd be ok to have this one moved to another thread on research methods.

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[toccoa42]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Who the h-e-double-hockey-stick ever said all tunes must be documented to a specific unit or soldier?

He's stating that we need to know that the song was sung AT ALL, by ANYONE serving or living during the Civil War era, military or civilian, not by a SPECIFIC soldier or unit.

You know, this was a great and useful thread until it turned into another Bash Danny Fest.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

In my opinion, internet sources like Google books and civilwar.com are excellent for a start, but there's a mountain of source material that isn't on the internet yet. Fat Neck Mess

That's true, but one thing the electronic sources can do is provide an idea of the historical "shadow" of a song. If it doesn't appear in Google Books, it may still exist, but with substantial likelihood that it wasn't too well known. In contrast to the songs mentioned, for example, a search for "Rally round the flag boys" turns up 181 hits just in the period before 1870.

But more relevant to this specific discussion is the fact that, given the opportunity to document either of the shanties you mentioned to the civil war period, you instead once again tried to excuse the absence of such a source.

I'm perfectly happy to be proved wrong about "Roll, Alabama, Roll," but you haven't even tried.

Mr. Kessler, I understand your concern about the trend of this thread, but this isn't about Danny. I don't know Danny and I don't want to bash him. I suspect he'd be a perfectly congenial comrade in camp. This is instead changing to a "bash unsupported generalizations and denial of the need for or validity of documentation" thread. And it's gone that way because we have a poster who continues to do both.

[Danny]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

...If it doesn't appear in Google Books, it may still exist, but with substantial likelihood that it wasn't too well known...

Michael - Google itself wouldn't claim that, they are nowhere near finished with their targeted material. It would work for me only if you replaced the words "Google Books" with "L.O.C."

But I'd prefer we don't dilute this thread on Reb songs in camp any further. Shall we move this to a thread on research?

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

No, Danny -- if I understand the moderators (and yes, they've set me straight a few times), research and documentation aren't really open for debate here.

The immediate question is the topic "Rebel songs in Federal camp," including the post in which you named two of them, and your subsequent desire to talk about documentation in the abstract, rather than whatever specific documentation you have for those songs.

I'm not going off topic. I'm asking you, for the third time now, a direct question about that topic.

I've pretty much given up expecting an answer, but I admit to a morbid curiosity about how long you can keep avoiding it.

[Danny]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

...would not Stephen Fosters music fit into camp as the tunes were so memorable?

Mel, Yes. His popular material had already been published and distributed and was available to the general population, and his tunes were catchy enough to be easily passed along aurally without transcript. Though many of his lyrics invoked the good ole "Southern" life, he managed pro-Union songs like "That's What's The Matter".

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[Silas]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

The immediate question is the topic "Rebel songs in Federal camp," including the post in which you named two of them, and your subsequent desire to talk about documentation in the abstract, rather than whatever specific documentation you have for those songs.

I'm not going off topic. I'm asking you, for the third time now, a direct question about that topic.

Your Honor,

Please direct the witness to answer the question or risk being held in contempt.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Michael -

In my opinion, internet sources like Google books and civilwar.com are excellent for a start, but there's a mountain of source material that isn't on the internet yet. Reference on songs passed via aural/oral tradition requires a deeper dive (pun :))....

...You and I know this, but some here have not had to write a paper since high school, and might not be aware that in scholarly settings internet cites are only acceptable when a paper or microfilm copy isn't setting on a shelf somewhere. Hank sets the bar on this forum in this regard, imho.

And I very rarely use paper sources. I agree fully with Michael's statement below:

That's true, but one thing the electronic sources can do is provide an idea of the historical "shadow" of a song. If it doesn't appear in Google Books, it may still exist, but with substantial likelihood that it wasn't too well known. In contrast to the songs mentioned, for example, a search for "Rally round the flag boys" turns up 181 hits just in the period before 1870.

For topics that were spoken about in the period, google books (and similar sites like the MOAs, Documenting the American South, all the original newspapers online, and so forth) gives a better broader quicker overview than most anything else. For things that weren't talked about by the average person, like specifics in the construction of artifacts, there are better sources including the artifacts themselves. And of course specific books that aren't online yet need to still be tracked down in hard copy, as well as letters and manuscripts and lots of local original material.

But it cracks me up when people poo poo "internet cites" as if a citation to something found by searching online in Harpers Weekly or a period book or the Atlantic Monthly is in the same category as a cite to Wikipedia or some reenacting unit's web page. For widespread trends, like what songs were common, the power of an internet search of a broad variety of primary sources beats all hollow the old way of looking through hard copies individually.

So, that being said, what's your citation to a primary source, either on or off the internet, showing Roll Alabama Roll was sung or mentioned before 1865?

I confess that I assumed it was a reasonably well known period song too, until now. Now I'm assuming it's not, unless somebody has a primary source or a close-to-primary source like a memoir that mentions it.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[yeoman]

Re: Rebel songs in Federal camp

Moderators, sir, my post #16 was a rhetorical question for Mr. White. I expected no answer.
Rereading, I feel my post was off thread topic and ask it and any response to post #16 be deleted.
Thank you, Mel Hadden