Hammered and Lap dulcimer

[amity]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

Terre -
You will have noticed, however, that songs in the folk tradition will be discouraged here for use in reenacting or living history -- unless they also happen to have been published before wars' end.

Well that is darned unfortunate because most of what was being sung in 1860 was likely UNpublished. I think we had a variant of this conversation before. If a given "folk song" was sung in Elizabethan court, and also sung in Appalachia in 1893 and collected by a scholarly song collector and preserved for us, then you can very safely bet that song was also sung in that same locale in 1860. To attempt to cast doubt upon this important principle in ethnomusicology is to fly in the face of scholarly opinion and established research techniques.

I trust that bodes well for songs taken from your Shape Note Harmonies published before war's end, but what of songs not published in Harmonies until after the war? Do you limit the songs you sing only to those you can show were published, or do you invoke living tradition and feel ok include some post-war-published anyway?

Some of the songs in the Sacred Harp were written during the war, some by soldiers, and some even bear the names of the battles during which they were written, like "Sharpsburg" for example. Those songs could accurately be sung or depicted as being written during a reenactment of that battle, because we do know that is what happened, even though they were not published until later.
Other than that I would stick to songs with a publication date of mid-1850s or earlier. The 1859 Sacred Harp is available online. It s not much different from the modern version, except, as I have said, for the addition of the alto part.

You and I can reason that certain songs were certainly created and sung before the war even if not published by then, based on their structure and their topics. We can also reason that with folk songs there was not a need or a profit motive to publish them until music collections came into vogue later in the Century. We can reason that they certainly existed before that, but alas that's all considered speculation and innappropriate here.

Danny, you really need to research the subject of how musicologists work. Their work is not "speculation." Some time ago I gave you sources for late 19th century researchers and the songs they collected. I do talk a bit about this in my earlier post in this thread also.

An example of an oft-sung folk song in camp (often played by period brass bands) is Shenendoah. By AC standards we now must give up that gem until it can be shown it was published before wars' end.

Publication does not count for too much in cases like this, Danny. Let's say that an 11th century te deum, never before published, is recorded by a brass band in 1968. (This sort of thing happens all the time so don't laugh. I refer you to the music of Hildegard von Bingen.) Can this music be used in an 11th century reenactment? Obviously not. Can the original hand written score from the 11th century be used in an 11th century reenactment? Obviously it can, even though it was never published, but let's not use the brass band arrangement.

Limiting historical reeenactment to "what was published" can oftentimes make for some very inaccurate reenactment, if dealing with subject matter and time period where such were NOT usually published. We live in an age where mass culture is very well developed, and what is published or recorded in Boston will make it to San Francisco through a process of cultural diffusion that takes weeks at the most, and soon we will ALL be singing that song that just came out on the radio. Times were not like that in 1860. People did not generally learn songs by going out and buying sheet music. That was a hobby of middle class and up people. Other processes of cultural transmission are more relevant to "the songs everyone knew," particularly aural transmission (that is to say, folk music). The enormous role of mass media is one of the distinguishing facets of 20th century life, but it does not have the same significance to 19th cent. So to get at aspects of culture that were not published, you need to rely upon other techniques, and we are not blazing new trails here. No speculation is necessary. The Music Department of any university can help us learn these techniques.

[Danny]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

Well that is darned unfortunate because most of what was being sung in 1860 was likely UNpublished...If a given "folk song" was ... collected by a scholarly song collector and preserved for us...to cast doubt upon this important principle in ethnomusicology is to fly in the face of scholarly opinion and established research techniques... to research the subject of how musicologists work. Their work is not "speculation."...Publication does not count for too much in cases like this...Limiting historical reeenactment to "what was published" can oftentimes make for some very inaccurate reenactment...

Terre - Thanks for your comments. Actually I was not defending the AC position but merely relating what it is: A pre- or during-war song must be shown to have been published by then, or at a minimum there must be a written record of a mention of the song (thanks, Hank).

Though you and I accept that musicologists embrace contextural and aural-only provenance as primary and a PEC indicator, the AC still considers that speculation, not suitable for impression. As for myself, I personally agree with you that it may be more innaccurate reenactment to reject certain folk songs when everything else about the song (subject, form) places it squarely in the period, especially astride similar songs of the same subject and form that happened to have been published. I again mention "Shenendoah" as an example of a song not allowed by AC standard at the moment."

Times were not like that in 1860. People did not generally learn songs by going out and buying sheet music. That was a hobby of middle class and up people. Other processes of cultural transmission are more relevant to "the songs everyone knew," particularly aural transmission (that is to say, folk music). The enormous role of mass media is one of the distinguishing facets of 20th century life, but it does not have the same significance to 19th cent...

I agree, the aural tradition was the dominant form of transmission for popular and folk songs, published or not. But counter to your assumption about distribution and use of sheet music, it was instead, by mid 19th Century , widely and commonly distributed and used. It was an early form of mass media with an established system of distribution. Songs based on a current event were printed and distributed within several weeks of an incident, not years. And sheet music was not only available to the priveledged class but to a much larger middle-class, and songbooks were available for mere coinage to the commoner, the common soldier included.

I wouldn't mind if you could elaborate on your earlier assumption that pianos and organs where not in wide use by CW times. By any source I've found on it, pianos were generally available for purchase. They were being manufactured in the States by then and delivered by train or wagon (North and South, even California by ship). There were a few thousand pianos and organs, not mere dozens, in use all over the Country. You could at the time expect there to be at least one organ in any city of any size - in the local church or the house of the most prominent citizen. You would have tuned your violin or sang using the relative pitch of the local organ as likely as using a tuning fork (as those weren't consistent in pitch standard as yet either). In any event, pianos were not a rare item, and sheet music was in abundance.

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

Well that is darned unfortunate because most of what was being sung in 1860 was likely UNpublished. I think we had a variant of this conversation before. If a given "folk song" was sung in Elizabethan court, and also sung in Appalachia in 1893 and collected by a scholarly song collector and preserved for us, then you can very safely bet that song was also sung in that same locale in 1860. To attempt to cast doubt upon this important principle in ethnomusicology is to fly in the face of scholarly opinion and established research techniques.

This is based on the false pretense of Dan's assumption. I think you will find the consensus of serious participants on this website desire to replicate and convey with a very high accuracy level and to the best of their ability the Plain, Everyday, Common aspects of the particular period issue or item at hand, be it martial or civilian. There are hundreds of known songs with direct provenance to the period as being "the standards of the day" which were enjoyed across the divided nation, most conveying a particular aspect or window into the culture of the time. The few opportunities we are able to gather and do what we do, be it for the public or among our own set, why don the jaguar trousers or other esoterica at the cost of undue attention to the Plain, Everyday and Common ?

Some of the songs in the Sacred Harp were written during the war, some by soldiers, and some even bear the names of the battles during which they were written, like "Sharpsburg" for example. Those songs could accurately be sung or depicted as being written during a reenactment of that battle, because we do know that is what happened, even though they were not published until later.

Here is a great opportunity to show an "important principle in ethnomusicology and established research techniques."

Could you please support the ones with CW soldier connections that were written during the war ? That is the surefire way to gain a following and ensure the "hobby-i-zation" of a premise or concept. I also ask out of genuine interest and not to raise the bristles on anybody's back.

[Danny]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

This is based on the false pretense of Dan's assumption...

Old King,

And you will please specifically identify and quote that exact pretense of mine which you find false, that we remain honest in our discussion and comply to AC decorum. Thanks in advance.

Dan Wykes

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

Firstly, slacken your girth and read before you pounce.

Originally Posted by Danny

Terre -

You will have noticed, however, that songs in the folk tradition will be discouraged here for use in reenacting or living history -- unless they also happen to have been published before wars' end.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

There are hundreds of known songs with direct provenance to the period as being "the standards of the day" which were enjoyed across the divided nation, most conveying a particular aspect or window into the culture of the time. The few opportunities we are able to gather and do what we do, be it for the public or among our own set, why don the jaguar trousers or other esoterica at the cost of undue attention to the Plain, Everyday and Common ?

I think that's a good point, because when a case is being made for a song to be period, one naturally wonders, why? What's the reason for wanting to prove that Shenandoah, for example, is among the songs a particular group of people might have sung in the 1860s?

If the answer is because the modern people who are portraying them already know the song and like it, since they're 20/21st century people who were exposed to it in their lifetime, then the tail is wagging the dog.

That direction of research leads down the path of seeing how many familiar modern things can be documented to the 1860s, so that reenactors can continue their familiar lives as much as possible at events, yet still stay within the "rules" that it's gotta be from the 1860s.

If a case is being made for a particular song because there's evidence it would fit in the 1860s demographics being portrayed--regardless whether people know it or like it today--that's a different story.

Terre's example is a good one:

If a given "folk song" was sung in Elizabethan court, and also sung in Appalachia in 1893 and collected by a scholarly song collector and preserved for us, then you can very safely bet that song was also sung in that same locale in 1860.

Selecting songs to learn and sing on that basis, with no regard to whether modern people already know or like them, is going to give a more undistorted picture of Appalachian po' folks in the 1860s, than cherry-picking songs that reenactors already know from modern life, trying to document them to the 1860s and only singing those songs.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

I think much of what has evolved in the hobby as the body of ACW songs stems from modern recordings of "less than nailed down research-wise" tunes by popular renenactor musicians and sold as CD's at sutler tents. Much of which is taken directly from a Gaelic / Irish folk music lineage and scene. Out of all music genre, Irish folk has maintained and promoted its historical roots and nature more than most others and is still mainly appreciated in its organic form and is widely known today.

I was at an event where I knew none of the songs that many seasoned historians knew and they knew few of the songs I knew. Songs like Lorena , Katy Wells and the large body of pre-1860 "minstrel'ry" are far less known than sea shantys and Irish drinking folk drinking songs in the reenactor community.

[Danny]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

...You will have noticed, however, that songs in the folk tradition will be discouraged here for use in reenacting or living history -- unless they also happen to have been published before wars' end...

Old King -

Thanks for owning up to the actual basis of your accusation. As we see here after all, there is no false statement in the cited post at all ... it's obvious songs in the folk tradition ARE discouraged here, plainly in the case of yourself and Mr. Trent in this very thread.

Which way will you have it then?

And Hank, about "Shenendoah." Thanks for your wisdom, it now seems so obvious. How modern it is in both style and subject. We were fooled that it has the meter of a short-haul shanty from the tall ship and flatboat era. We were distracted that it alludes to both Native Americans and frontier America. The only thing we can know for sure is that it came from somewhere at some time, but certainly not from a pre-war folk tradition in the United States, because, well... why is that again?

Because we like to sing something it must be suspect; that seems to be where we're going with this...

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[Hank Trent]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

it's obvious songs in the folk tradition ARE discouraged here, plainly in the case of yourself and Mr. Trent in this very thread.

Actually, that's just the opposite of what I said. Notice the example I quoted from Terre as a good example of documenting a song. If that's not a song in the folk tradition, I don't know what is.

And Hank, about "Shenendoah." Thanks for your wisdom, it now seems so obvious. How modern it is in both style and subject. We were fooled that it has the meter of a short-haul shanty from the tall ship and flatboat era. We were distracted that it alludes to both Native Americans and frontier America. The only thing we can know for sure is that it came from somewhere at some time, but certainly not from a pre-war folk tradition in the United States, because, well... why is that again?

Because we like to sing something it must be suspect; that seems to be where we're going with this...

Sounds like you missed my whole point.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

Danny just wear the jaguar skin trousers and play Shenandoah till yer fingers bleed and be done with it already.

Why do you insist on coming here and repeating that which has you blacklisted in circles of serious period musicians and forums ?

You dont go to the events here so go on and play what you play at mainstream events. Really man, Im not looking to fight here.

[Danny]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

Actually, that's just the opposite of what I said. Notice the example I quoted from Terre as a good example of documenting a song.

...and that quote from Terre is:

...If a given "folk song" was sung in Elizabethan court, and also sung in Appalachia in 1893 and collected by a scholarly song collector and preserved for us, then you can very safely bet that song was also sung in that same locale in 1860...

...you said that was a good example of documenting a song, and added:

If that's not a song in the folk tradition, I don't know what is.

Question answered then; The way you will have it is all ways:

Earlier you offered the nugget that (1) publish date primary source is not the only acceptable method, but also (2) a handwritten mention of the song makes it ok to use. Now you add that (3) a folk tradition provenance (even with no publish date or written note) is acceptable if you or someone you trust presents it.

You will notice that Amity's explanation above applies identically, I mean in detail identically, to the study of such songs as "Shenendoah." You and I, friend, are now in nearly complete accord for what may be acceptable provenance to use a song in impression. With Amity, we are three. That is the beauty of discussion.

Sounds like you missed my whole point. Hank Trent...

No, Hank, you quite cleary spoke your mind that you felt songs like "Shenendoah" are some sort of modern mimicry of genuine songs from an earlier and more sincere time. You clearly intimated that such songs, reenactorisms, serve the purpose of easy and fun songs to sing in modern camps and are not to be taken seriously.
- - -

I feel most of the issues surrounding "Harp Singing in Living History" have now been explored. When trivialization of a thread occurs, as it has here now, that's usually an indication that it may be time to lock it down, and I would be in favor of that. Thank you Mr. Schill, interesting topic.

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[Hank Trent]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

No, Hank, you quite cleary spoke your mind that you felt songs like "Shenendoah" are some sort of modern mimicry of the type of genuine songs from an earlier and more sincere time.

No I didn't. You've got your mind made up to dislike the way the AC forum people do things (however you define that), so whatever people here say, you'll misinterpret it, twist it, and argue against it, while missing the bigger picture.

And like Chris said, what does it matter? Why do you care if people here approve of what you sing, what you do, your research or how you reenact, if you think they're doing it wrong anyway?

For the record, I never said that Shenandoah was or wasn't period, because I don't know. I haven't researched it, because it's not a song I'm interested in, so I have no opinion on it. And I certainly don't care whether or not you sing it at the events you're at.

My observation is about the different motivations that reenactors have in general, for being interested in and researching certain things, and no one can say what a specific reenactor's motivation is. So if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

There's one attitude: Let's look for things we like and document them to the 1860s so we can use them at events. If they turn out not to be period, we won't do them.

And there's another attitude: Let's look to see what the 1860s were like, starting with the best available evidence about the time and place we're recreating. Whatever turns out to be period, we'll try to do.

Following the first attitude, one can ingeniously claim that everything one does is perfectly documented to the period. And it's absolutely true. But if it isn't immediately clear why the first attitude incorporates a natural bias that one must try to guard against, then I don't think I can ever explain it.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Danny]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

...I don't think I can ever explain it. Hank Trent

Then let's let it go for now, we've left plenty for folks to chew on.

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

Danny please listen to what one of the most respected and congenial men in the entire hobby and its Internets fora is telling you.

CJR

[Danny]

Re: Harp Singing in Living History

...please listen to what one of the most respected and congenial men in the entire hobby and its Internets fora is telling you.CJR

Yes, and we've also appreciated Terre's contribution. Hope she can post another gem or two occasionally.

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess