babylon has fallen

[Old Cremona]

Re: babylon has fallen

I have a question about the performance of Work's songs that I'm hoping one of you musicians can help me with. Today he's undercut by his massively "incorrect" dialect lyrics. But -- and believe it or not, this occurred to me while reading those for "Corporal Schnapps" -- wouldn't this have undercut sales in the day? Not because they were considered offensive, but it seems way harder to memorize lyrics that consist half of nonsense versions of corrupted English. Do you think people might have more or less substituted real English for some passages?

Just curious.

Naah. I've never had any more trouble memorizing dialect than standard english. I've never heard of any one complaining about the difficulty of memorizing dialect. They sure published a lot of dialect tunes back then. Seems like a waste of effort if no one was going to sing it that way.

[GermanDraftee]

Re: babylon has fallen

IMHO, the quote from the publisher, George Frederick Root, establishes that AC standards have been met. The song in question is listed by its seller as a principle work (=sold a ton of copies) from a writer who had a string of "hits" with this company. Since Root differentiates between a song with ongoing, post-war popularity- Marching Through Georgia- and songs that were more popular during the war, I believe that it is safe to say that Babylon is Fallen was popular, and is usuable for scenarios, in late 1863 and onward.

[riptailedroarer]

Re: babylon has fallen

Does any one know of the song " Babylon has fallen ( to rise no more)". I've found it was in the scard harp with music by W.E.Chute C.1878 but in other links it says the words are "traditional", and to confuse my search there is a vertion by henry work (?) and various Reggae artists.
I first heard the song when I was involved in English civil war reenacting in the 80s:o, great song to sing as you walk in to battle.with just the drum:D.
I have found the song on you tube being sung from the sacred harp, I just wondered if there was c/w tune for it.

this my question, nothing to do with Mr.work, the lyrics are thease, do thet predate the war?

BABYLON IS FALLEN (2)

Hail the day so long expected,
Hail the year of full release.
Zion's walls are now erected,
And her watchmen publish peace.
Through our Shiloh's wide dominion,
Hear the trumpet loudly roar,
Babylon is fallen to rise no more.

....Baaaaaa....(drawn out...with the rest following a half beat later)
Babylon is fallen, fallen, fallen
Babylon is fallen, to rise no more.

All her merchants stand with wonder,
What is this that comes to pass:
Murm'ring like the distant thunder,
Crying, "Oh alas, alas."
Swell the sound, ye kings and nobles,
Priest and people, rich and poor;
Babylon is fallen to rise no more.

Blow the trumpet in Mount Zion,
Christ shall come a second time;
Ruling with a rod of iron
All who now as foes combine.
Babel's garments we've rejected,
And our fellowship is o'er,
Babylon is fallen to rise no more.

[dculgan]

Re: babylon has fallen

[QUOTE=OldKingCrow;162537] He NEVER posts here about commonly known and well supported pieces, it always the obtuse and vaguely supported. This then leads to a long thread.

Makes for interesting reading though.
Dave Culgan
Camptown Shakers

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: babylon has fallen

"Makes for interesting reading though."

Entertaining perhaps, but I wouldn't call it interesting...and it always turns into the P/E/C approach versus Danny's philosophy at the moment.

"What if no one's documented any specific song to that particular regiment or event?"

Even if we documented a handfull of tunes to a particular regiment (which I have actually done for drum corps, see thread on 148th Pennsylvania for example), we would still end up with a biased selection of tunes.

The P/E/C approach for music in my mind would be to try to at least start by building a "top 40" list of tunes from the period and then go from there. If you are a fiddler, start with Soldier's Joy. If you play the banjo, learn Old Dan Tucker. In order words, start with the songs and tunes that are all over the place in tune collections like Elias Howe's, banjo tutors, diaries, newspapers, regimental histories, etc.

The "other" approach is pick songs and instruments that you like and then try to see if they're "old enough." Dulcimers and Shenandoah might fit the bill if this is your method of researching your impression as a musician.

"Babylon has Fallen" falls somewhere in between "rare and not well-known" and "extremely popular". We don't know where exactly and will never know.

But it's not that hard to separate the wheat from the tares.

"this my question, nothing to do with Mr.work, the lyrics are thease, do thet predate the war?"

You're more likely to get your answer if you type "Hail the day so long expected" into google books than you will by asking on this forum.

[Hank Trent]

Re: babylon has fallen

this my question, nothing to do with Mr.work, the lyrics are thease, do thet predate the war?

See post #6 in this thread.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[riptailedroarer]

Re: babylon has fallen

Thanks Hank, Just looking at the different vertions they all seam to have the same 1st verse and different ones to follow. I did find a vertion that came from the West Indies and refered to the abolition of slavery in the colonies.

[amity]

Re: babylon has fallen

Riptailedroarer, would you be so kind as to post a link to that version from the West Indies? I would love to see that. '
Thanks.

By the way, did ayone happen to find an author listed for these lyrics?

[riptailedroarer]

Re: babylon has fallen

Hi Terre, I found it here http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=4024#1334526 if you follow the link and scroll to the postings, find a post by "Q" 22 Nov '04 or ust read all the posts;) they are interesting.

[Danny]

Re: babylon has fallen

Thanks Hank, Just looking at the different vertions they all seam to have the same 1st verse and different ones to follow. I did find a vertion that came from the West Indies and refered to the abolition of slavery in the colonies.

John -

Not understanding exactly what you're looking for. Do you feel that a pre-war folk version of "Babylon Has Fallen" -- in this case from the West Indies and referring to the abolition of slavery in the colonies -- would be more relevant to your white union soldier impression than the documented mid-war published version of the song?

Or is it that this has nothing to do with your impression, you just have a general interest in what a war-time U.S.C.V., contraband, or slave might be singing in Camp? I understand that, have the same interests myself.

I think the AC answer is that although a white Union soldier might have heard the earlier folk version of "Babylon Has Fallen" and sang it himself, it would be misleading to say it was P.E.C. at the time so should be avoided. After all, much more well-known and popular folk songs like Shenendoah or Roll Alabama Roll have been solidly excluded here, pending any new information on them.

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[riptailedroarer]

Re: babylon has fallen

Dan, what I was trying to find out weather the words as I know them ( post 44) were known pre war and as such were P.E.C. from the posts I read it seems the "song" is old and was printed in many vertions before the war (post 6) but there is no evidence that the lyrics I sing had been .:(
Thanks for all the comments, I think I'll go back to my store cupboard and see if I've got another can of worms :confused_

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: babylon has fallen

weather the words as I know them ( post 44) were known pre war and as such were P.E.C.

If the words to any song are pre-war, does that make the song P.E.C.? If well-known a decade or two before the war, perhaps, but if known, but not well-known, in the 18th century, I would say not necessarily.

Perhaps none of this applies to BHF, but this kind of "old enough" reasoning is what results in a biased representation of period music.

In fife and drum music, for example, much of the repertoire of so-called living history corps is more like reenacting the music of 1976, instead of 1776.

In a similar fashion we are in danger of reenacting the music of 1986-1990 instead of 1861-1865.

[Danny]

Re: babylon has fallen

If the words to any song are pre-war, does that make the song P.E.C.?...this kind of "old enough" reasoning is what results in a biased representation of period music.

33rd, thanks for keeping on point.

If P/E/C means anything, the pre-war lyrics sought for the West Indies verSion can only be P/E/C for West Indies or U.S. slavery settings, I would think.

That being the case, the pre war lyrics are not P/E/C for a white Union soldier. Yet, we have to concede a particular white Union Soldier could have heard it or sung it, if that's what John was looking for.

Anyway, it was never disputed there was a melody or two for the song before the war, so fiddle away through the entire war.

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[Danny]

Re: babylon has fallen

If the words to any song are pre-war, does that make the song P.E.C.?...this kind of "old enough" reasoning is what results in a biased representation of period music.

33rd, thanks for staying on point. If P/E/C means anything, the West Indies version is P/E/C for antebellum West Indies or U.S. slavery settings only. Not P/E/C for a wartime white Union soldier even if heard or sung by one, but we have to concede that could have happened, if that's what John was looking for.

The music was known long before the CW - that hasn't been disputed so fiddle on for the whole war.

Dan Wykes
Fat Neck Mess

[eric marten]

Re: babylon has fallen

What does MMM stand for?