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Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War
CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida
Originally posted by Old Cremona
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Now that OldKingCrow has gone full-tilt psycho on me, as he so often does here, I hesitate to even respond, but he raises so many issues all at once that I feel compelled to respond...
How bout just responding to your assertion that home-crafted banjos, specifically those of gourd construction had vanished at some point at the hand of or prior to Sweeney and didn't exist in the 1850's, and your further taunting me into recollecting and posting where I had read of their use in the 50's...which I later did in annotated detail.
No, I won't- I'm taking up the contrary position here. I'm saying that no documentation exists to show that any soldiers in the ACW ever played gourd banjos. Plenty of documentation exists to show that soldiers in the ACW played wood-rim banjos. So you do the math. Which one is the best choice, the PEC choice, for the authentically-minded reenactor?
Calculation complete. Wood rimmed, tack or hooped, natural skinned and gut stringed, friction pegged.... no question. But to speak as the be all, end all of the matter as to whether a banjo (most often self-made) out of a gourd, a common staple of the plantation music scene (and metro scene per that reference I posted and you didn't respond to)...and to discourage the lads in the thread from learning and perpetuating the average weekender's in the ranks knowledge of minstrely..based solely on lack of a quote that says "I Johnny Reb used me a banjer made o' gourd" well I'm gwine to deviate from PEC here. I don't subscribe to the line of thought, based on what I have seen to date, that banjos are somehow exempt from the period practice of total exhaustion of utility of material goods, nor from the natural progression of bond, preservation and use of musical instruments throughout history. From medieval lute to 1959 Les Paul Standard. We are not talking jaguar skin trousers or some other postwar anachronism here.
Pete Ross represents exactly the "spirit or level of supported historical provenenace of this community." He uses every bit of the available documentation. That documentation is, of course, limited,... but he uses all of it. Jeff Menzies uses none of it. He doesn't have to. He's not trying to replicate a gourd banjo as closely as he can to the 19th century. He builds them to be played and had fun with. And they excel at that.
Pete makes amazing insturments but they lack the provenace requirement (that you seem to selectively apply) for being the pinnacle of accuracy in the earlier historical settings you describe. A 1789 oil painting, a banjo that copies your buddy's designs and banjo in Haiti doesnt make for absolute War of 1812 provennace does it ? Im not a Menzies fanboy...in fact like most folks, he hates me. I bought the Menzies gourd second hand and I bought the wunderlich tackead banjo you sent to him for repair and he never disclosed the repair or shimmed neck.
I think you are the one who now has personal feelings invested in this "critical thread," since you are trying to sell a Menzies gourd on this very site. I'm sorry, dude, but I'm not telling you anything that is not generally understood in the early banjo community today. Ross gourd: hardcore. Menzies gourd: players axe.
Um, er dude, I would stomp that banjo into a hundred tiny walnut and canteen gourd pieces before I would sell to many here.
Just because I have disagreed with you on the usefulness of gourd banjos in authentic reenacting, doesn't mean I have "assumed the position of undisputed authority." I think you're pouring it on a little thick here.
We dont really disagree...I am seeking light....you brought heat. Silas is gwine to kick one or both of us of us, mos'sobbly me in the junk here shortly. I posted support of my specific assertion re-read the thread..nothing more.
Well that's fine, to use it in demonstration purposes, I use one myself for the same purposes. My point is that in keeping with the mission of authentic reenacting, we go with what is most common, and best documented.
Yes I agree and promote the PEC concept within the confines of the Minutia of Martial Material, Methods and Man..the five M's...but with other common cultural items existing and in common use prior to the ACW, especially rarities as musicians, wagons, culinary, civilian equine and other focused impressions, lacking specific support to the contrary, I'm inclined to grant some lee way for incorporation of known, common use items predating the period.
I think I have made my point, so I'll turn it back over to OldKingCrow for the last word. Have fun with those gourd banjos...it's a shame we didn't bother to document them better back in the day.
I don't want the last word Carl. I want you share your wealth of knowledge on the topic. I do wish you would post more of that documentation you often speak of, but we can chalk that up to our different styles. I am going to try to encourage the lads in this thread to research period banjo construction characteristics and to make their own banjo, be it out of a cheesebox, steamed wood hoop or a gourd, then proceed to get one of the period tutors, a few select CD's to learn tunes, cooler of beers on ice, head out to the back porch and get to it....and then lead at every event they go to that their banjo doesn't meet the OldCremora / PEC standard and there can then be hopefully good, enlightening early banjo music and no worries.
How bout just responding to your assertion that home-crafted banjos, specifically those of gourd construction had vanished at some point at the hand of or prior to Sweeney and didn't exist in the 1850's, and your further taunting me into recollecting and posting where I had read of their use in the 50's...which I later did in annotated detail.
No, I won't- I'm taking up the contrary position here. I'm saying that no documentation exists to show that any soldiers in the ACW ever played gourd banjos. Plenty of documentation exists to show that soldiers in the ACW played wood-rim banjos. So you do the math. Which one is the best choice, the PEC choice, for the authentically-minded reenactor?
Calculation complete. Wood rimmed, tack or hooped, natural skinned and gut stringed, friction pegged.... no question. But to speak as the be all, end all of the matter as to whether a banjo (most often self-made) out of a gourd, a common staple of the plantation music scene (and metro scene per that reference I posted and you didn't respond to)...and to discourage the lads in the thread from learning and perpetuating the average weekender's in the ranks knowledge of minstrely..based solely on lack of a quote that says "I Johnny Reb used me a banjer made o' gourd" well I'm gwine to deviate from PEC here. I don't subscribe to the line of thought, based on what I have seen to date, that banjos are somehow exempt from the period practice of total exhaustion of utility of material goods, nor from the natural progression of bond, preservation and use of musical instruments throughout history. From medieval lute to 1959 Les Paul Standard. We are not talking jaguar skin trousers or some other postwar anachronism here.
Pete Ross represents exactly the "spirit or level of supported historical provenenace of this community." He uses every bit of the available documentation. That documentation is, of course, limited,... but he uses all of it. Jeff Menzies uses none of it. He doesn't have to. He's not trying to replicate a gourd banjo as closely as he can to the 19th century. He builds them to be played and had fun with. And they excel at that.
Pete makes amazing insturments but they lack the provenace requirement (that you seem to selectively apply) for being the pinnacle of accuracy in the earlier historical settings you describe. A 1789 oil painting, a banjo that copies your buddy's designs and banjo in Haiti doesnt make for absolute War of 1812 provennace does it ? Im not a Menzies fanboy...in fact like most folks, he hates me. I bought the Menzies gourd second hand and I bought the wunderlich tackead banjo you sent to him for repair and he never disclosed the repair or shimmed neck.
I think you are the one who now has personal feelings invested in this "critical thread," since you are trying to sell a Menzies gourd on this very site. I'm sorry, dude, but I'm not telling you anything that is not generally understood in the early banjo community today. Ross gourd: hardcore. Menzies gourd: players axe.
Um, er dude, I would stomp that banjo into a hundred tiny walnut and canteen gourd pieces before I would sell to many here.
Just because I have disagreed with you on the usefulness of gourd banjos in authentic reenacting, doesn't mean I have "assumed the position of undisputed authority." I think you're pouring it on a little thick here.
We dont really disagree...I am seeking light....you brought heat. Silas is gwine to kick one or both of us of us, mos'sobbly me in the junk here shortly. I posted support of my specific assertion re-read the thread..nothing more.
Well that's fine, to use it in demonstration purposes, I use one myself for the same purposes. My point is that in keeping with the mission of authentic reenacting, we go with what is most common, and best documented.
Yes I agree and promote the PEC concept within the confines of the Minutia of Martial Material, Methods and Man..the five M's...but with other common cultural items existing and in common use prior to the ACW, especially rarities as musicians, wagons, culinary, civilian equine and other focused impressions, lacking specific support to the contrary, I'm inclined to grant some lee way for incorporation of known, common use items predating the period.
I think I have made my point, so I'll turn it back over to OldKingCrow for the last word. Have fun with those gourd banjos...it's a shame we didn't bother to document them better back in the day.
I don't want the last word Carl. I want you share your wealth of knowledge on the topic. I do wish you would post more of that documentation you often speak of, but we can chalk that up to our different styles. I am going to try to encourage the lads in this thread to research period banjo construction characteristics and to make their own banjo, be it out of a cheesebox, steamed wood hoop or a gourd, then proceed to get one of the period tutors, a few select CD's to learn tunes, cooler of beers on ice, head out to the back porch and get to it....and then lead at every event they go to that their banjo doesn't meet the OldCremora / PEC standard and there can then be hopefully good, enlightening early banjo music and no worries.
Tampa, Florida
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