Gourd Banjos in Civil War

[dangibson]

Can anyone tell me if gourd banjos were common, rare or non-existent among soldiers during the Civil War? Would you find them in camps, etc., or had they pretty much passed from the scene entirely by then.

[Old Cremona]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

As long as you can document a gourd banjo being played during the "waw" you're fine. I've never seen any documentation of one being used. If they were still being used, they were most likely being played by an enslaved person. If you care about accuracy you'd best go with a wood-rim banjoe.

[PVT.BEN MILLER]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

Were are you getting yours made? I am looking for one also. and hard to find one in my price range right know.

-Ben Miller

[dangibson]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

Were are you getting yours made? I am looking for one also. and hard to find one in my price range right know.

-Ben Miller

Bob Thornburg made it. I bought it used. If you look around you can probably find one. It's great fun to play with a deep mellow sound (the gourd's about 12" across), gut strings, skin head, fretless.

[dangibson]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

As long as you can document a gourd banjo being played during the "waw" you're fine. I've never seen any documentation of one being used. If they were still being used, they were most likely being played by an enslaved person. If you care about accuracy you'd best go with a wood-rim banjoe.

Thanks. That's about what I suspected. I am looking into buying a grain measure tackhead banjo that is for sale here in the Dallas area. I'm a professional storyteller/banjoplayer, and I use old time banjo in my programs. The gourd was available at a good price and I fell in love with sound. The tackhead and the music of the era would fit nicely with the few Civil War Stories I tell, and would fill in the historical gap between the gourd and my modern, open-back Lee banjo. Ooops, I may have talked myself into it.

And furthermore, I have already learned a great deal about Civil War things thanks to this terrific site. It's a great resource. Thanks to all of you for keeping it going. Talk to you later.

[Marine Mike]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

Check with Prust as he seems to have gourd banjos in the affordable range.
Web site is http://www.chloesgarden.com/Banjos%2...Web/Banjos.htm
There are several others offering them but this was one I could recall without looking.
Check Banjo Hangout for more leads at http://www.banjohangout.org/

Mike Stein

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

As long as you can document a gourd banjo being played during the "waw" you're fine. I've never seen any documentation of one being used. If they were still being used, they were most likely being played by an enslaved person. If you care about accuracy you'd best go with a wood-rim banjoe.

Perhaps this is applying a standard which is not consistent with the approach to other material aspects of the hobby in that material items from a time predating the period are known to have carried forward in common use ? Gourd and other "home-brewed" banjos using grain sifters / measures, cake boxes and other erstaz resonating chambers where popular alternatives for those far removed geographically or economically restrained in obtaining a commercial banjo.

I think history / events are better served by presenting and keeping alive the music of the era on a proper gourd banjer than to forgoe a muscial component / contribution based on lack of contemporary reference for said banjer.

I happen to have both, gourd and wood rim and though I have quit the pursuit of period music and they collect dust now, the Menzies gourd just drips tone and brings forth wonderful, complex overtones based on its enclosed resonating chamber.

Nice as they are a Prust tis not a properly constructed period gourd banjer.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Old Cremona]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

Nice as they are a Prust tis not a properly constructed period gourd banjer.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Quite true. Also, nice as they are, the Menzies Gourd banjo is not a "properly" constructed period gourd banjo. Neither are the the Mochella gourds banjos, or the Thornburg gourd banjos.

None of these luthiers are attempting to reproduce a gourd banjo exactly as it existed in the 18th and 19th centuries. They are hybrids. The necks they construct are patterned after a minstrel-style wood rim banjo. Also, they are five string banjos. Original 18th and 19th century gourd banjos were four string-- three long and one short. No one knows who added the bass string, but there is no evidence of five string banjos before Joel Walker Sweeney and the appearance of the wood-rim banjo.

There is just one guy who reproduces correct period gourd banjos, his name is Pete Ross. http://www.banjopete.com/

Check his site out, and learn about the correct way a period gourd banjo is constructed.

Now for Rev War reenacting, if you are African-American, a Ross gourd banjo would be spot-on. I'd dearly love to see such an impression. Same for War of 1812. For Civil War era reenacting, there is no reason to use such a (by then) unusual instrument, when the wood-rim banjo had taken over the popular culture, and are so well documented.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

Quite true. Also, nice as they are, the Menzies Gourd banjo is not a "properly" constructed period gourd banjo. Neither are the the Mochella gourds banjos, or the Thornburg gourd banjos.

In terms of proper construction I personally lean towards acceptance if period materials and methods are used as opposed to modern tuners, synthetic heads...etc

None of these luthiers are attempting to reproduce a gourd banjo exactly as it existed in the 18th and 19th centuries. They are hybrids. The necks they construct are patterned after a minstrel-style wood rim banjo. Also, they are five string banjos. Original 18th and 19th century gourd banjos were four string-- three long and one short. No one knows who added the bass string, but there is no evidence of five string banjos before Joel Walker Sweeney and the appearance of the wood-rim banjo.

There is just one guy who reproduces correct period gourd banjos, his name is Pete Ross. http://www.banjopete.com/ Check his site out, and learn about the correct way a period gourd banjo is constructed.


Pete does indeed do some fine work but when you peel back the layers with an eye towards accuracy in historical representation you have to temper the fact only one of his banjos is based on an extant example, the original of which is Haitian in location, origin and provenance. Two of the others I believe, please correct me, are "patterned after" representations of banjos found in then contemporary art work, another named after and based on the designs of another fine, modern gourd luthier, a fifth banjo is based on modern designs found in west Africa and a final is a modern incarnation by Pete of an extant original instrument,. as you elude to above, of a "hybrid" Boucher style neck on replacement gourd body....which makes it the most accurate out of all of em’ by my amateur, unlearnt , hayseed reckoning.


Now for Rev War reenacting, if you are African-American, a Ross gourd banjo would be spot-on. I'd dearly love to see such an impression. Same for War of 1812. For Civil War era reenacting, there is no reason to use such a (by then) unusual instrument, when the wood-rim banjo had taken over the popular culture, and are so well documented.

I would agree history does reveal the progression of the gourd banjo to be most associated with negro slave culture pre-dating the ACW, but in the same breath I have not seen support to indicate home made banjos constructed from readily available materials found in mid-19th century agrarian communities ceased to be constructed or used as of a date certain. I seem to recall reading of gourds being used in the1850’s (will check my home resources tonight). I would love to add any well documented support of the take over of popular culture or transition to the wood rim to my understanding.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Old Cremona]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

I seem to recall reading of gourds being used in the1850’s (will check my home resources tonight).

Now you're talking, boy-o. This thread is crying out for some documentation.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

I loves me some documentation.... like a fat kid loves him some cake......

"All the world has heard Thalberg upon the pianoforte let us have the privilege of hearing him on the banjo ! With his uniform kindness he at once opened the case. It was empty Thalberg with the enthusiasm of all youug students had attacked with too much warmth the melody.

О Susannah don t you cry for me

I come from Alabama with my banjo on my knee

and alas the instrument was now gone to the shop for repair. Thus we have not yet heard Thalberg on the banjo. When we have that honor the world shall surely know it. Oh that we could be in Paris when on the artist's return this new accomplishment is made known to the public of that city. Nothing of the like has been dreamed of there and all the eccentricities of Vivier will be entirely eclipsed. Every will be button holed in the streets not for the salutation “How do you do ? but with the query “Have you heard banjo ?”

“The banjo? What in the name of Saxe is that ?"

"A primary affair, the national instrument of America, the black part of it at least, a guitar finger board attached to gourd drum. For a Week Paris will think of nothing else, may if it pleases make a new comp dé at, no one will pay slightest attention to it for the great affair of the hour will to hear Thalberg's banjo. The Musical World - Volume 35 – August 8, 1857 pg 502 Thalberg on the Banjo (from the Courier Etate Unis)

Will you now be posting documentation to support your assertion that homemade banjos (most particullarly of gourd construction) fell out of popularity and use on a date certain and further definitive support that no gourd banjos where used in the ACW ? Or in retort will you be posting a vendor who when you peel back the layers doesnt really represent the the spirit or level of supported historical provenenace of this community? Or just more antagonistic PMs on my personal coms ? Come on buddy you are the noted expert in this field, I expected more.

This is critical thread and I sense perhaps your personal feelings are now invested. My motivation is not to support use of my gourd or wood rim banjo.... as I am not welcome at events where it matters anyways and have such have quit the pursuit. It is about the history of stringed insturments. When I have done LH (and it has been around many here who can tell you) I use the gourd to demonstrate the chronological progression of the banjo from the slave quarters to the major metropolitan performance stage.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

DELETED FOR POSTWAR CONTENT

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

Here is a prime example of contradiction not only in our understood evolution of the history of early negro "banjo-lry" but contradiction in this first person author's own words. Nothing is certain as historical discovery is never ending. Once one assumes the position of undisputed authority on a given historical subject and marginalizes the contributions of others adding to or reconciling the historical understanding, they cease to be a true historian.

"I have seen males and females dancing, rapidly whirling round, whooping and yelling with brutal delight, alike unmindful of the past and future. I have never known, in a single instance, of a colored man of any moral tone who was fond of the banjo or common dance. The plantation slaves often suffer with hunger. Despite the common boasts of the slaveholder, the Allwise only knows how much penury and starvation wear out the lives of the slaves. Dancing is one of their favorite amusements. I have often looked at their dances during their different holidays.

The banjo is of all instruments the best adapted to the lowest class of slaves. It is the very symbol of their savage degradation. They talk to it, and a skillful performer can excite the most diverse passions among the dancers. Generally, however, they have no instruments, but dance to the tunes and words of a leader, keeping time by striking their hands against the thighs, and patting the right foot, to the words of "

Pictures of Slavery in Church and State;
Including Personal Reminiscences, Biographical Sketches,
Anecdotes,
Containing the Views of John Wesley and Richard Watson on Slavery:
Long, John Dixon, 1817-1894

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Old Cremona]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

Now that OldKingCrow has gone full-tilt psycho on me, as he so often does here, I hesitate to even respond, but he raises so many issues all at once that I feel compelled to respond...

Will you now be posting documentation to support your assertion that homemade banjos (most particullarly of gourd construction) fell out of popularity and use on a date certain and further definitive support that no gourd banjos where used in the ACW ?

No, I won't- I'm taking up the contrary position here. I'm saying that no documentation exists to show that any soldiers in the ACW ever played gourd banjos. Plenty of documentation exists to show that soldiers in the ACW played wood-rim banjos. So you do the math. Which one is the best choice, the PEC choice, for the authentically-minded reenactor?

Or in retort will you be posting a vendor who when you peel back the layers doesnt really represent the the spirit or level of supported historical provenenace of this community?

Pete Ross represents exactly the "spirit or level of supported historical provenenace of this community." He uses every bit of the available documentation. That documentation is, of course, limited,... but he uses all of it. Jeff Menzies uses none of it. He doesn't have to. He's not trying to replicate a gourd banjo as closely as he can to the 19th century. He builds them to be played and had fun with. And they excel at that.

I think you are the one who now has personal feelings invested in this "critical thread," since you are trying to sell a Menzies gourd on this very site. I'm sorry, dude, but I'm not telling you anything that is not generally understood in the early banjo community today. Ross gourd: hardcore. Menzies gourd: players axe.

Once one assumes the position of undisputed authority on a given historical subject and marginalizes the contributions of others adding to or reconciling the historical understanding, they cease to be a true historian.

Just because I have disagreed with you on the usefulness of gourd banjos in authentic reenacting, doesn't mean I have "assumed the position of undisputed authority." I think you're pouring it on a little thick here.

"I have seen males and females dancing, rapidly whirling round, whooping and yelling with brutal delight, alike unmindful of the past and future. I have never known, in a single instance, of a colored man of any moral tone who was fond of the banjo or common dance. The plantation slaves often suffer with hunger. Despite the common boasts of the slaveholder, the Allwise only knows how much penury and starvation wear out the lives of the slaves. Dancing is one of their favorite amusements. I have often looked at their dances during their different holidays.

The banjo is of all instruments the best adapted to the lowest class of slaves. It is the very symbol of their savage degradation. They talk to it, and a skillful performer can excite the most diverse passions among the dancers. Generally, however, they have no instruments, but dance to the tunes and words of a leader, keeping time by striking their hands against the thighs, and patting the right foot, to the words of "

Pictures of Slavery in Church and State;
Including Personal Reminiscences, Biographical Sketches,
Anecdotes,
Containing the Views of John Wesley and Richard Watson on Slavery:
Long, John Dixon, 1817-1894

I think this quote, and it's a good one, shows how very "black" the gourd banjo was perceived as. We don't have any real idea what the music sounded like, but there is every reason to assume that the gourd banjo was the "exclusive province" of African-Americans.

When I have done LH (and it has been around many here who can tell you) I use the gourd to demonstrate the chronological progression of the banjo from the slave quarters to the major metropolitan performance stage.

Well that's fine, to use it in demonstration purposes, I use one myself for the same purposes. My point is that in keeping with the mission of authentic reenacting, we go with what is most common, and best documented.

I think I have made my point, so I'll turn it back over to OldKingCrow for the last word. Have fun with those gourd banjos...it's a shame we didn't bother to document them better back in day.

[Silas]

Re: Gourd Banjos in Civil War

Information : good. Emotional baggage : bad. Keep the discussion history based, and keep the emotions off the keyboard. Violators risk having their posting privileges curtailed to only being able post in threads about fife and drum.

Herein fail not at your peril.