Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Musical Correctness - a conversation

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Musical Correctness - a conversation

    This is in no way meant to open a can of worms nor is it an attempt to bait or cause discomfort. If you respond to this thread, please be respectful of ALL opinions cast and give proper thought to you answer before posting. If we all show constraint and courtesy we may be able to have a deep, meaninful, discussion about a what is or is not acceptable in musical interpretation at living history venues.

    In the rules of this board therre is a strong warning to avoid "farbism". I think that by ourr participation on this board we all agree with this point. We all want to avoid in-authenticity in our impressions and in our oral presentations. That is somewhat easier to o when it comes to material culture issues dealing with clothing and arms since the source material for these itmes is varied and fairly widespread. There are hundreds of photos of shirts, original patterns in period publications and collections and more than a few preserved examples in both public and private collections. Arms, and equipment have not only these sources but also allow us to use plans, arsenal specifiactions and patent materials and technical drawings to assist us in our interpretation. Even in matters of writing and linguistics we have some very good sources to help guide our interpretation. Music and period "folk" instruments becomes a much harder case.

    When I use the word folk here I specifically mean instruments that do not fit into the military or civilian classic ensambles (orhcestral, brass, fife and drum) but rather, those instruments played by small groups, amature individuals or professionals, that do not fit into the description above. Banjos, dulcimers, guitars, harmonicas, melodeons, violins, bones, fire tongs, accordeons, flutes, whistles, etc, all fall into this latter category.

    Here is the problem for me: what level of "farbism" is accpetable to this group and how do we define it? So that the discussion can be meaningful we need to have a starting point. I will stick to banjos as it is the subject with which I am most familiar.

    I can tell you that with less than 250 known examples of early banjos to use for research, it is quite hard to define clear parmeters for "authenticity". If we use the paradigms of other instrument collections research we can see clear trends and characteristics that can help us define a vocabulary of design elements. The problem is that such a work, if strictly followed, would eliminate all but a few of the instruments currently in use in the hobby. For the sake of disclosure it should be known that my early banjos would fall into this category as well. Most of the banjos out there (including a number of mine) simply do not measure up. Let me be even more specific.

    Banjos made by William Boucher fall into two distinct groups: painted and unpainted. Those that were painted are either false grained (indian red and black glaze) or simlply red and a few (at least three) have stencils in addition to paint. Those not painted (and showing no sign off ever being painted) are all made of birds eye maple. If we understand this fully then is a cherry Boucher without paint acceptable? Even though there is no evidence exists that such an instrument was ever made?

    I wish I was not personally torn on this matter. I can see both sides and indeed I have made justt such a banjo so it is not my intent to point a finger at anyone besides myself.

    So here then is the question at hand and, I hope we can have a meaningful discussion on it. What rises to the level of "farbism" in music?
    Last edited by georgewunderlich; 09-09-2010, 07:41 AM. Reason: spelling
    [FONT="Book Antiqua"]George Wunderlich
    Executive Director
    National Museum of Civil War Medicine and
    The Letterman Institute [/FONT]

  • #2
    Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

    I have a mandolin and dulcimer and guitar. Non of which are NUG! Simple.
    All are accoustic and all are correct period wize, except the guitar as the tuners are wrong.
    I have a violin which has, becasue I use it in an orchestral capacity as well steel strings, not gut. So therefore does not pass really, even if I shift off it the chin rest and adjusters.
    Therefore I would no longer bring them to propper events.
    I have a violin that will pass but is worth a few hundred quid, also a fail as I am not carrying it around in a sack as its case is not NUG.

    Therefore to avoid farbing it, unless it is a public paying event I do not play or bring them simple.

    It does strike me that this may create a proprtion disparity between how many players there was now and then, but this is an argument that has been had before.
    [B][I]Christian Sprakes
    19th Regimental Musician and Bugler[FONT="Impact"][/FONT][/I][/B]

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

      Your comments are most helpful to me in better understnading what the current thinking on authenticity is. Thank you for your repsonse.

      If I may ask, what would you feel is the correct level of authenticity for a violin? Att what point do you feel a violin is OK and what is the break point beetween OK and not OK in your book. Again, I am only trying to judge the current standards.

      Thanks again for your willingness to respond!
      [FONT="Book Antiqua"]George Wunderlich
      Executive Director
      National Museum of Civil War Medicine and
      The Letterman Institute [/FONT]

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

        To my knowledge, there are generally no official standards for field musicians at any event.

        There is only one person in the entire country making correct reproduction fifes (Ron Peeler). But most people choose to use more modern fifes that "sound better" or are "easier" to play.

        Reproduction drums by almost all major makers do not compare favorably to originals.

        Many of the tunes and drumbeats played are post-war or are rare and/or fancy pieces, whereas plain/everyday/common tunes and camp duty calls and beats are neglected.

        To summarize, unofficial authenticity standards for field music and reproduction drums and fifes are not much higher than they were during the 125th anniversary.

        Yet there is slow progress evidenced by the recent news that Noble and Cooley will do a run of reproduction drums. What would really help would be a group releasing a CD with the camp duty tunes and beats from the tactics manuals.
        Last edited by 33rdaladrummer; 09-09-2010, 04:42 PM.
        Will Chappell

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

          In the spirit of expanding music at events I have promoted allowing leeway from such rigid standards where there is a limited body of primary evidence and reference materials, but enough for sound, general guidance provided there is not blatent anachronism.

          With respect to stringed instruments of the period the must have / deal killers are: natural materials, in particular gut strings and natural skin heads. The composition of these items are intrinsic and vital to the tonal merits on which this music stands and a key feature of the evolution and progression of the instruments themselves. On banjos the other major feature is fretless construction. Although I can live with Nylaguts on the march nad in the field, especially for the aspiring, new banjoist. I used to keep my backup strung w/ Nylaguts for those bad hair humidity days.

          Things like peg head shapes, neck profiles, finishes, construction utilizing modern power tools and geographically assigned provenance of extant examples and for the living historian scene, who made the insturment are important as well (to the manic OCD like myself it kills me personally - so much so that I gave it all up !) but they are not critical faults worthy of Internets scorn and refused participation at events.

          In terms of muscial selection........there is a body of music that has come to be known in the hobby as standards through their promotion by hobbiest bands / ensembles releasing CD's (Irish folk, Sea Shanties, drinking songs, etc). While these songs are chronologically in step with the era pre-dating and comprising the ACW....they are popular where perhaps there are other more appropriate tunes with direct provenance conveying some specific societal concept of the era. For me, in addition to Southron martial and cultural arrangements this meant minstrelry....and I applied myself to building those songs into my repitoire. I now see where there is a body of evidence to suggest that minstrel music is not appropriate for CS ranks / soldiers, nor the proper intrepretation of Southern musical culture in the civilian context. Which reinforces feelings for me personally at the end of the day.... early banjo and this music is best enjoyed individually rather than try to intrep for the public or at an event. I was certainly guilty of playing out and trying to teach the ranks these tunes (lyrics sheets, sing-a-longs etc). Live. Learn.

          Christopher Rideout
          Tampa, Florida
          Last edited by OldKingCrow; 09-09-2010, 05:02 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

            Hallo!

            I am not a CW musician.

            IMHO, CW "music" is much akin to the "firearm authenticity" issue that plagues the Hobby. As a hobby, with the exception of a small handful of lads (and lassies) who research and recreate the instruments or use originals AND the music that is appropriate to the time, place, and circumstances of the CW and Pre-CW era...

            We have:

            Period music played on Period instruments
            Period music played on Non-Period instruments
            Period music played on Non-Period instruments played to modern forms and tempos (what a pard calls "high school marching band" style)
            Post War music played on Period instruments
            Post War music played on Non-Period instruments

            IMHO still, as with firearms and edged weapons, with no universally agreed upon standards, acceptance of a standards, or ability to create or enforce universal standards- we have Italian firearms and Indian edged weapons that are "close enough" for the Hobby AND "music" that is "close enough" for the wants and needs of most folks.

            Others' mileage will vary...

            Curt
            Brass Throat and Tin, er Deaf, Ear Mess

            (Who studied the 5 string banjo and "blue grass" music for eight years, and who is not a CW musician.)
            Curt Schmidt
            In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

            -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
            -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
            -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
            -Vastly Ignorant
            -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

              Originally posted by 33rdaladrummer View Post
              To my knowledge, there are generally no official standards for field musicians at any event.

              There is only one person in the entire country making correct reproduction fifes (Ron Peeler). But most people choose to use more modern fifes that "sound better" or are "easier" to play.

              Reproduction drums by almost all major makers do not compare favorably to originals.



              To summarize, unofficial authenticity standards for field music and reproduction drums and fifes are not much higher than they were during the 125th anniversary.
              That is indeed a sad state of affairs. I suppose in all honesty the banjo-fiddle-et.al. side of the hobby is not much better. Although high quality instruments are available, fortunately.

              I would simply like to see the music end of the hobby strive for the same high goals frequently evidenced in the material and impression side of the hobby. Do we use reproduction clothing, weapons, accoutrements, or cooking utensils of an unknown or uncertain providence? Of course not. Why shouldn't we apply the same standards to our music?

              We have a responsibility to educate our comrades, too--by example, preferably. Many times I have met top-notch members of the AC community enthuse for the 97th Regimental String Band. If you like the 97th, I mean no offense, and they certainly are a lively and entertaining ensemble, but authentic-aspiring they surely are not--one look at their instruments will tell you that.

              Shouldn't we insist on the same exacting standards we demand in material standards in the music we present to our hobby brethren (and sisteren)?

              (p.s.--I didn't see Curt's post before I made mine-- I would simply like to opine that among the top-end hobbyists I have seen here in the state of Missouri and in the Western and Eastern (EFUBU) event's that I have taken part, I have seen plenty of quality kits and serious, researched impressions. The music end does not often rise to that level.)
              Last edited by Old Cremona; 09-09-2010, 06:51 PM.
              [FONT="Book Antiqua"]Carl Anderton[/FONT]

              [FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"][SIZE="2"]"A very good idea of the old style of playing may be formed by referring to the [I]Briggs Banjo Instructor."[/I][/SIZE][/FONT]
              [FONT="Palatino Linotype"][B]Albert Baur, Sgt., Co. A, 102nd Regiment, NY Volunteer Infantry.[/B][/FONT]

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

                Correct music is the next frontier in the authentic side of the hobby. The more folks listen to correct music, the more they'd realize that must of what is readily available is junk. The problem is finding correct music. Recordings are a labor of love which are produced in limited number, sell for a limited time, and cause limited sales. It's not unusual for the players to be stuck with a bunch of cd's they were not able to unload at a fair price because their recordings do not compete well on sutler shelves with the names that most folks recognize.

                I'm not mentioning names of some musicians who far better at their craft than I'll ever be. I'm critical of what they play and how they play it.

                For correct music to be appreciated, we need more correct bands and more recordings. Some tunes other than the same, tired old war songs would help. There are some great period songsheets, songsters and music books of the period waiting online to be rediscovered. Folks who were at In The Van or any marches I've done since then would recognize De History ob de World aka Walk into de Parlor. That's an oldie in the "Ethiopian" style which I've not yet heard any bands record.
                Silas Tackitt,
                one of the moderators.

                Click here for a link to forum rules - or don't at your own peril.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

                  Gottschalk on a Steinway or Chickering. Just saying...
                  Michael A. Schaffner

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

                    I think that reenactors as a whole - not just those who play - should research a bit and broaden their musical horizons. Mention was made of a set of standard tunes that are usually done. Yes, they are and they are done to death. I am so sick of hearing the same songs over and over at just about every event I go to. I also don't like hearing them out of period. For example, Marching Through Georgia wafting through the air at an 1862 event just kind of takes something away from the experience.

                    People in the 1860's knew many more songs than we hear at the typical event. It also seems to me that those that have a fairly nice reportoire of music seem to focus on Irish songs a lot - maybe it's just what I've been around. I remember being at an immersion event and somone kept singing songs - he had a nice voice, new a wide variety and enjoyed singing them but they were all Irish songs. I finally turned around to him and said 'Don't you know no American songs?'

                    I think we all could benefit from a little extra musical knowledge to make the hobby more meaningful to us individually.
                    Michael Comer
                    one of the moderator guys

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

                      Originally posted by Silas View Post
                      There are some great period songsheets, songsters and music books of the period waiting online to be rediscovered. Folks who were at In The Van or any marches I've done since then would recognize De History ob de World aka Walk into de Parlor. That's an oldie in the "Ethiopian" style which I've not yet heard any bands record.
                      Silas I have been there done that with effort of songsters of my own at Westville....now it seems we have evolved through application of rigid, exacting standards to questioning the appropriateness of who, when and where these can be interpreted. Ok from a purely historical representation perspective I see it...but who wants their buzz harshed after all the work put into perfecting the performance of these tunes....there was a time this was fun and all I wanted to apply my spare time and finances to.

                      CJ Rideout
                      Tampa, Florida

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

                        From AEBG I:

                        [FONT="Book Antiqua"]Carl Anderton[/FONT]

                        [FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"][SIZE="2"]"A very good idea of the old style of playing may be formed by referring to the [I]Briggs Banjo Instructor."[/I][/SIZE][/FONT]
                        [FONT="Palatino Linotype"][B]Albert Baur, Sgt., Co. A, 102nd Regiment, NY Volunteer Infantry.[/B][/FONT]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

                          Regarding Violins (fiddles):

                          No chin-rests, no fine tuners, no steel, nylon, perlon, aluminum, or other synthetic strings, no "composite" or plastic tailpieces, no steel/nylon "tail-guts". No fiberglass or composite bows.
                          The strings should be unwound, unvarnished sheep gut E, A, and D strings, the G string gut wound with silver wire. the tail-gut made from a thick chord of dyed sheep gut.
                          To use other than these readily available accesories would be to deceive your fellow reenactors and spectators. The sound of modern violins is so different from period ones, so much louder, with that bright metallic "edge" that is foreign to the sound of a 19th century fiddle. Yes, it's what we are used to hearing in the 20th and 21st centuries, and metal/synthetic strings (with fine tuners) are much easier to get a loud sound from, and easier to tune and play in tune, but they are missing the wonderful, earthy, mellow sound of pure gut strings.
                          Many of the popular "string bands" which sell hundreds of CD's to unsuspecting reenactors use modern instruments because they sound, in their opinions, "better" and louder, but they know they are being deceitful, and sometimes as you approach them, they discretely cover the modern hardware with their beards or clothing. But it is the sound of the instruments that give them away.
                          The period correct strings and accessories are so much easier to obtain now, than, say, 20 years ago, that there is no excuse to try to tell reenactors that nylon and plastic and steel strings existed in the 1860's - no more expensive, either - Pirastro Chordas are cheaper than most modern synthetic strings. Documented tunings from this time period include EADG, EADA, and EAEA. Thousands of period tunes are available in published collections by Howe, Mount, etc. There should be no need for reenactors to have to listen to Golden Slippers, Ashokan Farewell or other post-war tunes. It is not extremely difficult to present the music properly. At the living history museum where I work, there are five period violins, played by five different performers ranging in age from 12 to 59 years old (performers, not instruments). Those who insist on playing 20th century fiddles should take their performances and CD's to the Grand Ole Opry or Hee Haw TV show, not civil war events.
                          Last edited by eric marten; 09-09-2010, 08:37 PM.
                          Eric Marten

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

                            Don't knock Hee Haw as the "pickin' and grinnin'" piece is really just a modern adapation of the song and joke concept found in Arkansas Traveler :

                            (Play song) then :
                            Stranger : Why don't you cover your house? It leaks.
                            Old Man : 'Cause it's rainin'.
                            Stranger : Then why don't you cover it when it's not raining?
                            Old Man : 'Cause it doesn't leak.
                            (Play song.)
                            And it goes again and again and again. Find it here in the Arkansas Traveler Songbook.
                            Silas Tackitt,
                            one of the moderators.

                            Click here for a link to forum rules - or don't at your own peril.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Musical Correctness - a conversation

                              Actually, I'm not knocking Hee Haw. I used to look forward to the weekends in the 1960's and I enjoyed Grandpa Jones's talent. But I wouldn't bring his modern banjo or steel strings to a civil war event. BTW, I have used that particular joke in my performances, but not lately. Thanks for the reminder!
                              Eric Marten

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X