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1860 Minstrel Group Question

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  • #31
    Re: 1860 Minstrel Group Question

    There isn't even agreement on where the word bodhran came from, let alone when one was first widely used. From Wikipedia:

    "Third-generation bodhrán maker Caramel Tobin asserts that the name bodhrán means "skin tray"; he also suggests a link with the Irish word bodhor, meaning soft, or dull sounding.[3] Another theory asserts its name is derived from the similar Irish word bodhar, meaning deaf. A relatively new introduction to Irish music, the bodhrán has largely replaced the role of the tambourine, suggesting another possible origin for bodhrán's name from the abbreviation "'bourine".

    Personally I'd lean towards the "bourine" theory, and the 1950's origin. The instrument (tambourine) probably reached Ireland with Dan Emmett's tour, along with the banjo. "Tambourine" by the way comes from the diminutive of the French word for drum, "tambour".

    Unsubstantiated statements I've read that bodhrans were used to lead Ancient celtic troops into battle, or in the 1603 Rebellion, cannot be believed by anyone who has tried to play a bodhran, or even a large tambo, outdoors. They carry maybe 30-50 feet max on a dry day.

    What saddens me is with the bodhran's fairly recent introduction into historical Celtic music (much of which shockingly actually has as much of its roots in England as in the other Isles, but don't tell an Irishman that), no attempt was made to reintroduce traditional historical drumming as a style, a.k.a. military rudimental drumming, as heard in the Civil War, even though this well-documented method was widely played throughout the UK and US into the 20th century, until modern bagpipe drumming replaced it in the UK.

    Instead, non-historic (in Ireland) jazzy or Afro-celt styles of rythym are universally used with the bodhran today, although I think both 2/4 and 6/8 Civil War quickstep drum beats actually sound pretty cool beat out on a bodhran along with Celtic instrumental music, especially when they are some of the original historical beats that were used with the tunes.

    Joe Whitney

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    • #32
      Re: 1860 Minstrel Group Question

      Hello.

      Tambourines (I usually call them "tambo" also) in the 1850's and '60's were more often quite large.

      And there are many photos documenting their use and relative size.

      The one I use is a copy of an early 1850's instrument, and is 14", some are larger.
      We were lucky to get documents of an original tambo, the same model of which appears in a Vance dag, hence the confidence in the date. Vance was active in the California gold country in the 1850's, returning to the east around the time the ACW ended.

      As for the bodran, here is from wikipedia: "A relatively new introduction to Irish music, the bodhrán has largely replaced the role of the tambourine, suggesting another possible origin for bodhrán's name from the abbreviation "'bourine"."

      I never heard that "etimology" before, but food, as they say, for thought.

      The early images of frame drums used by Irish musicians that I have seen, often do have "jingles," and I have assumed that the instrument came to the old country, along with the banjo, through that international musical craze of minstrelsy, and evolved there.

      Irish music is not my area, but the very serious traditional Irish musicians in our area agree the the bodhran is a more modern element in that music.

      Both the history of the American Civil War and the culture of Ireland are often shrouded in myth and romance.
      So one might wish to find affirmative primary sources to justify bodhran use in interpretation of mid 19th century in the USA (or Ireland for that matter).

      There is a great daguerrotype in Phillip Gura's fine book C.F.Martin and his Guitars, plate 2-4, dated by the author to early 1850's, showing a fiddle player with a bodhran player, the bodhran appears to have "jingles," which in my book makes it a tambo.

      Yours,
      David Swarens.
      San Diego, Cal.
      Last edited by David Swarens; 01-20-2011, 09:21 PM. Reason: spelling!

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      • #33
        Re: 1860 Minstrel Group Question

        David,

        How "tall" is your 14" tambo? Photos would be great!

        Thanks.
        Will Chappell

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        • #34
          Re: 1860 Minstrel Group Question

          Hello.
          My "copy" Tambo is 2 1/2" tall (or deep), 14" across, and about 1/4" inch thick (which I recall being a bit thicker than the original).

          It has six sets of jangles, and seven tensioners, somewhat like on a boucher banjo, with wing nuts to tighten.

          A slightly larger than one inch (finger) hole, to position/locate the instrument appears in the place of one set of zingles, so that the spacing is even around the hoop, with this one substitution.

          I apologize that these measurements are off of the copy, rather than the original, but I am not finding my file at present, and thought a prompt response would be best.
          I believe that our only change was to make the shell a bit thicker (still only 1/4" !).


          I don't know if I can post photos or not, but it would be fairly easy for me to send an e mail image of the original instrument, which I was graciously provided by Ole" Bull himself.
          My copy is named in his honor.

          Even though this stuff is the technology of a previous century (the 20th) it is still is a but much!

          Yours,
          David Swarens.
          San Diego, Cal.
          Last edited by David Swarens; 01-27-2011, 09:16 PM.

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          • #35
            Re: 1860 Minstrel Group Question

            The thing that makes this a tamborine in the subject photo, besides its obvious use in a minstrel group (post war, because they are actual blacks, not blacked-up whites) is that some zills (the little metal plates that rattle) are installed on the rim (in very widely-spaced slots compared to modern tamborines).

            Anyway, what's in a name? There were many kinds of hand drums originating in several cultures (including native American and middle-Eastern) before those in Euro-American culture were commonly called tamborines by CW time, and those commonly called bodhrans by later times. What we've come to recognize as a bodhran commonly has cross bars across the hoop, where tamborines commonly don't.

            As for "Tambo," we can put that one to rest. It's simply short for tamborine or tamborine player, and it became a stock character's name in Minstrel performance and popular literature.
            Last edited by Danny; 01-30-2011, 07:09 PM.
            Danny Wykes

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            • #36
              Re: 1860 Minstrel Group Question

              I must resepctfully disagree on dating this image to a post war period simply because of the race of the players. We call this a minstrel group because of our own cultural references. Just because ther are four players in a traditional "minstrel" groups does not mean they are anything more than a black string band. Those existed both before and after the war. If they were in make-up (which black minstrels did use in order to fit the stage audience expectations) then I would agree with the dating. The fact that they are not in blackface makes me believe that they are not minstrels at all.
              [FONT="Book Antiqua"]George Wunderlich
              Executive Director
              National Museum of Civil War Medicine and
              The Letterman Institute [/FONT]

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              • #37
                Re: 1860 Minstrel Group Question

                Originally posted by georgewunderlich View Post
                I must resepctfully disagree on dating this image to a post war period simply because of the race of the players. We call this a minstrel group because of our own cultural references. Just because ther are four players in a traditional "minstrel" groups does not mean they are anything more than a black string band. Those existed both before and after the war. If they were in make-up (which black minstrels did use in order to fit the stage audience expectations) then I would agree with the dating. The fact that they are not in blackface makes me believe that they are not minstrels at all.
                Agreed. Judging by the background motif I would say this is more than likely a war time photograph. Very much agree with the string band observation, being as these guys aren't exactly "duded up" like minstrels.
                Scott House

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                • #38
                  Re:Re: 1860 Minstrel Group Question

                  Respectfully George, this group could have arranged their seating in any other order besides prototypical minstrel stage order with bones and tambo always on the outside. Either the photographer, or the musicians, or all of them, preferred the seating order and surely knew it alluded to minstrel stage. That is their cultural reference, not ours.

                  Calling them minstrels isn't far off. We have a good idea what this set of instruments sounded like together. With that instrument arrangement, Could this group have avoided playing some minstrel tunes in a long set?

                  With the Union camp scene (U.S. Flag and military A-tent) it certainly seems these were not pre-war or wartime Southern blacks - no a slave band playing for their massa's Ball certainly. Independent groups of free black musicians (unsponsored by circus or white troupe) were rare because they were not well accepted North or South before the war. That's why it's as likely this is a post-war group.

                  Comments?
                  Last edited by Danny; 02-03-2011, 11:39 AM.
                  Danny Wykes

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                  • #39
                    Re: 1860 Minstrel Group Question

                    For some more info on pre-war black musicians, read biography of Francis Johnson (1792-1844) a black orchestra leader and composer based in Philadelphia. He is the composer of "The Philadelphia Fireman's Cotillion", which is the origin of the frequently played "Firemen's Quickstep" among re-enactor fifers and fiddlers.
                    Last edited by eric marten; 02-03-2011, 08:52 AM.
                    Eric Marten

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                    • #40
                      Re: 1860 Minstrel Group Question

                      Eric -

                      What amazing accomplishments for a black pre-war musician and his band!

                      Still, Francis Johnson and his band faced the same pre-war problem: "Johnson's career was never far from the ugliest forms of racial persecution. White bands often refused to participate in parades when Johnson's band was scheduled ...A particularly violent incident occurred near Pittsburgh: "At the close of the concert the mob followed Mr. Johnson and his company shouting "n____" and other opprobrious epithets, and hurling brick-bats, stones and rotten eggs in great profusion upon the unfortunate performers. One poor fellow was severely...wounded in the head..."

                      The Tribune [NY], May 23, 1843.
                      Last edited by Danny; 02-03-2011, 11:42 AM.
                      Danny Wykes

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                      • #41
                        Re: 1860 Minstrel Group Question

                        Dan:

                        Thanks for that interesting bit of information. Incredible obstacles this musician overcame. The African-American influence on American music has got to be the main reason American fiddle music is so at variance with Anglo-Celtic fiddle music. Incidentally, Robert Nelson Mount, a white dancing master living in Georgia in the 1840's and 1850's used to send transcriptions of tunes he learned from native Georgians, both white and black, to his brother, William Sidney Mount in New York, with the advice to retune the bass string (G string) up one tone (to A) in order to achieve that "Negro touch" This is the tuning that many fiddlers still use when playing in the key of D.
                        Last edited by eric marten; 02-03-2011, 12:20 PM.
                        Eric Marten

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                        • #42
                          Re: 1860 Minstrel Group Question

                          I was glad to help you David and flattered that you take pleasure to beat on my namesake.
                          Yes it is a Tambo/Tambourine. That size and style of holding/playing them is same as the common depiction of the era. No it is not a Bodhran, which was introduced around 1960.
                          I have an original example nearly identical to the (wonderful) period image shared with me by David S. and is the one he refers to.
                          It is 14" d. x 2.5". There are photos of it and the repros I made from it on my Facebook page FYI.
                          http://www.facebook.com/album.php?id...3567&aid=51744
                          John "Ole Bull" Dwyer

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