B and E PDF ?

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: B and E PDF ?

Sue,

I agree with you for the most part on Hart, but some of his selections seem to be regional or personal favorites. I doubt that "General Bank's March, as played by A. Lydecker, for many years fifer in Dodworth's" and "General Grant's Troop [by] C.S. Collins" were commonly played for Reveille, even though he presents these as the Slow Scotch and The Dutch.

Then again, the old standard "Slow Scotch" is rather boring and the "Old Queen Dutch" is a difficult fife tune, so even though those specific tunes weren't the typical replacements, the practice of tune substitution is the lesson here.

Then there's his funky version of Army 2-4 from Moonlight Quickstep...

[Sue]

Re: B and E PDF ?

"We're trying to determine what the tens of thousands of drummers in the war played, and we're relying on a very small sample. And it's an even smaller sample if you realize that

1) Howe, Keach-Burditt-Cassidy, Simpson-Canterbury all represent the same school
2) Klinehanse, Nevins, Ryan are all basically the same
3) Bruce and Emmett is unique
4) Hart is unique
5) Strube served from 1861-63

So even if 3 manuals agree on something, that is not enough evidence to support its use. You have to do more than take the manuals at face value."

I would disagree with you, Will, but I can't because you have already said what I am going to say: The Howe sequence all came from Boston. . . the Klinehanse sequence Chicago? or at least the midwest. . . and Strube and B&E from New York (Gardiner was a militia drummer,* as was Bruce for a short period). It may be a small sample of book compilers, but IMHO they actually represent 3 distinct geographical regions full of drummers. Again, not a drummer so I could be wrong, but I astonished at how similar these drumming styles are, especially if you trace them backwards (I think we would end up more or less with Ashworth, no?). In any event, I don't think they were copying each other as much as they were simply reflecting the regional status of the art as they knew it and no doubt practiced it. I mean, why reinvent the wheel? Why invest time, money, and bother in setting new type when you could just use the old composites, slap some important name on the front (in the case of Nevins, a well-known local with some sort of McClellan connection, real or imagined), and get the book out there and make some money while war fever was at a high pitch? This was easy enough, especially if you were a big-deal music publisher like Root & Cady, buying up smaller houses. They ended up with literally tons of old plates and composites that they simply reissued, with and without their names on the bottom. . They had been doing this with engraved plates since the 18thc (look at Georg Willig and the 1767 issue of Complete Tutor for the Fife), and they pretty much continued to do it until the copyright laws were strengthened and enforced around 1890ish.

Another thing--things in the military changed very slowly (I would cite an examination of the camp duty, both 18c and 19c as an example). So, although I would not dare to presume that the 1853 Klinehanse book in and of itself represents anything other than what its author intended in 1853, two facts speak of its importance to drummers during the Civil War and beyond:

1) fact that it was reissued essentially intact into the early 1870s with little or no changes, copies of which were advertised and sold at the time and some of which remain extant today, plus

2) the fact that much of its style and execution remain in today's aural drum repertory.

So, yeah, we can't dig up the dead and asked what they played, but I think we can put some good faith into logically assuming that these manuals and their spinoffs represent much more than the thinking of 3 men.

Interested in knowing what others think about this.


Susan Cifaldi


*this is significant, because if you read the period papers, you will find that the NYSM had crackerjack drum corps. For example, the 7th (a/k/a the "Silk Stocking Regiment" because they were just a bunch of snooty rich socialites) had not only the premier brass band (Grafulla's), it had what was popularly the best drum corps, which led the NY contingent at the procession of the 100th Anniversary of Bunker Hill. Bruce indeed served with the 7th but only for a short period of time (he was on the run from the regular army, so his militia stints were brief indeed). Strube was in the 22nd, as was his son, which is where the CF&DA found him (and the plates, which they used to reissue the Instructor in 1931)...and it was none other than H.C. Hart himself who taught the drum corps of the 71st NYSM. Lotsa drumming history in these regiments.

[Sue]

Re: B and E PDF ?

Maybe not so much personal favorites as they were regional ones. Remember, his book had to sell, or he wouldn't eat (well, maybe wouldn't eat so grandly). He taught drum bands. He knew what was in the air and what the drummers liked.

He didn't do the fife part, he hired some flute player out of New Haven, CT to put the tunes together. He certainly knew which tunes went with each beating, though, and hence the list of titles he submits to go along to a specific drum beating.

Actually I wonder if he would espouse the corollary to my what-fifers-think-about-drummers logic ("Without us, it's just noise.") Sometimes I fancy that he may have agreed with the old swamp Yankee drum major of the East Hampton Corps who Ed used to tell me about. When his corps was about to go on stand he would instruct them like this:

"Drummah's play "Golden Slippahs.
Fifahs, play whut ye hev a mind to."

Susan Cifaldi

[Sue]

Re: B and E PDF ?

Oh, and Lydecker? Dodworth? C.S. Collins? Those names had appeal to military musicians. They were the military musical trend-setters. To be sure, if Dodworth was playing something, there would be a demand for it in sheet music so other bands could pick it up. So, I do think Hart was name-dropping-for-profit when he put those attributions in there.

Re tune substitution, that is a practice that goes back to the 18thc. Another indication of regional differences. As researchers, we sometimes get lucky if a specific substitution is mentioned in an orderly book or diary, but it's pretty much a life's work to systematically find these things.

Susan Cifaldi


Susan Cifaldi

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: B and E PDF ?

the Klinehanse sequence Chicago?

Klinehanse -- Washington, D.C.

I'm not sure about Nevins but I wouldn't call it the Chicago school because he more or less ripped off Klinehanse, who wasn't from Chicago.

Keach, Burditt, and Cassidy; Simpson and Canterbury; Howe -- definitely Boston school. I bet Simpson was related to Dan Simpson, famous drummer of the Ancient and Honorable Artillery. So maybe these folks weren't as much ripping each other off as they were all putting out manuals based on the Boston style of drumming. So if you want to recreate the Massachusetts style of drumming, there you go.

If you're trying to recreate the New York Style of drumming-- Strube and B&E might be good choices.

Hart is the old Connecticut style.

Unfortunately the Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New York styles might not have been the style picked up by the thousands of untrained drummers. We'll never know how many were taught by rote versus by note, but chances are an experienced drummer would simply pass down his knowledge to less experienced drummers rather than consulting a manual. For example, the chief drummer of the 4th Virginia was a Mexican War vet. Some of the drummers in the 4th Alabama were in the regular army before the war. They probably didn't have much use for Hart's or Howe's.

Just because there were 3 Boston manuals and 2 New York manuals doesn't mean the way that, say, the Three Camps fife part from Keach was more common than the one from Strube. What was most common in the manuals wasn't necessarily the most common in practice.

So today when we talk about what we think drumming was like 150 years ago, and we use the manuals as evidence, maybe we're not talking about 5 drummers from Boston and 2 drummers from New York, and one who studied drumming in Middletown, Connecticut, but we are certainly focusing on those regions.

they actually represent 3 distinct geographical regions full of drummers.

But if you're portraying a musician from an Indiana or a Pennsylvania regiment, it's much more of a guess. For Confederates, we really don't have much to work with.

[eric marten]

Re: B and E PDF ?

Quoted by Sue: "Drummah's play "Golden Slippahs.
Fifahs, play whut ye hev a mind to."

Was there a different Golden Slippers? James Bland (1854-1911) composed Golden Slippers in 1879 so it is beyond our CW period. We've "banned" that song from being performed at Old Bethpage Village Restoration, although at CW events you may hear some of the "string bands" or "minstrel groups" perform it (usually on modern "farby" instruments with steel strings), along with Ashoken Farewell and The Devil Went Down to Georgia.

[Sue]

Re: B and E PDF ?

Well, it's like you said before. The more we know, the more we don't know.

When I retire, which will be in 3 years 6 months and 13 days (not that I am counting or anything) I am going to read all the newspapers from 1858 to 1867 and record every single mention of fife, drum, fifer, drummer, etc in articles, ads--anywhere! into a big huge database. That's my goal. Then we will have a better idea about what was out there and where it was.

Then I am going to do the quartermaster records.

So, get out of my way. . .;-)

Hart, what a hoot, he was born in jersey lived in ny and died in pa, yet he saved CT mid-century drumming and fifing. . . go figure. . .

Susan Cifaldi

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: B and E PDF ?

I didn't know anyone was reading this thread except for me, Sue, and Joe!

Eric, I don't think Sue was implying that Golden Slippers was a period tune. She was trying to make a point about the use of generic drumbeats that go with several different tunes.

Sometimes post-war stuff can be useful in the study of period music. This one relates to our discussion:

New York Times, 12 May 1867, p. 6:


NATIONAL GUARD.

Considerable activity was observable in [New York] National Guard circles during the past week. We give our usual summary of events:

*************

DRUM CORPS DRILL.

The first of the series of competitive drills for the drum corps championship, took place on Thursday evening [May 9th, 1867] at the Stadt Theatre, between the Drum Corps of the Fifth and Twelfth [New York National Guard] Regiments. The occasion drew together a large audience. The Fifth Regiment Drum Corps appeared with thirty drums, and gave the United States Regular Army beats and the German Army calls. They displayed great proficiency in the latter, being aided therein by the Bugle Corps. The Twelfth Regiment Drum Corps appeared with seventeen drummers, and confined themselves wholly to the United States Army beats, being highly successful in their rendition of the same. Both corps received their meed of applause [sic], and public sentiment seemed greatly divided regarding the issue. Drum Majors BRUCE, SMITH, TOMPKINS and JUDSON acted as judges, and they have not yet pronounced their decision. As we have been requested to give our opinion on the subject, we comply by saying that the Twelfth Regiment Corps were the most accurate in their rendition of the army calls now in use in the Regular Army of the United States, the Fifth Drum Corps displaying too many flourishes while beating the common calls.

------------------------------

So if Strube's beats were similar to the 12th's, and Bruce's were similar to the 5th's, then imagine all the other variations that weren't written down. So if you're going by the manuals, you could be playing dumbed-down, fancied-up, or just plain different versions of what was actually played.

[Sue]

Re: B and E PDF ?

Oh, no, Eric, it's what Will said. It's just to make a point about stock beats. . . although if you could have heard Ed Olsen mimicking the swamp Yankee twang he recalled hearing in his youth, used to crack me up. . .

Will that's a fantastic little article! definitely a keeper. (and makes my point about the NY state militia drum corps).

Susan Cifaldi

[eric marten]

Re: B and E PDF ?

Thank you Will and Sue - I stand corrected - Sorry. I know sometimes I sound like a grouchy old man (but I'm not that old!)

Speaking of counting: There are three kinds of people in the world: Those who can count, and those who can't. :)

[joewhitney]

Re: B and E PDF ?

"So if you're going by the manuals, you could be playing dumbed-down, fancied-up, or just plain different versions of what was actually played."

Good point, Will. And that's not even addressing what may/may not have been played down here in the South! But there were no microphones back then, so the manuals are just about all we have to go by, unless something else comes along, like some notes from an Alan Lomax type who went around documenting what was actually being played in different parts of the country. Unlikely at this point.

The alternative is since we don't know what exactly was played let people come up with their own stuff, to compose fife music and drum beats "in the style of the period". That was done for far too long in the historic fife and drum world, at least as far back as the bicentennial.

Now with more research we have a much clearer picture of what would have been played or not played, but we're stuck with tons of farby stuff! I'll never forget how crestfallen Rob Hodge was when I let him in on the fact that his favorite beat, Granny Does Your Dog Bite, wasn't period, but composed by George Carroll!

That article does support two facts, that the old time sticklers liked simpler, cleaner drum beats the soldiers could follow, without all the fancy "improvements", and Bruce's beats compared to other drum majors' were considered by some to not represent as well the true army beatings.

Joe Whitney
2nd SC String Band
Liberty Hall Drum & Fife Corps

[Sue]

Re: B and E PDF ?

S'OK, Eric, and you didn't sound grouchy at all (or old, even) ;-)

Susan Cifaldi

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: B and E PDF ?

Mark Jaeger dug that up several years ago. For some reason I can't find it on nytimes.com, although I've found other mentions of NYSM drum corps.

Strube was in the 5th from 1861 - 1863 and was drum major of the 12th in 1869. He also was drum-major of the 22nd in 1873.

Bruce was drum-major of the 7th in 1862 and the 22nd in 1863.

Bruce was judging that competion. I wonder which corps he preferred. It's possible that Strube was also present at that competition as a member of the 12th (don't know when he joined) and that the 5th was trying to outdo their former member. Who knows what 5th was playing, maybe even fancier versions than B&E.

Strube could have played that fancy style when he was in the 5th and toned things down for his manual.

That article does support two facts, that the old time sticklers liked simpler, cleaner drum beats the soldiers could follow, without all the fancy "improvements", and Bruce's beats compared to other drum majors' were considered by some to not represent as well the true army beatings.

Here's another article from the Times written by Strube about another competition.

79350506.pdf

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: B and E PDF ?

Here's the original challenge for the drum corps competition, initiated by Strube. He was indeed present at the competition mentioned above.

79812504.pdf

Here's another account of the 5th vs. 12th drum corps competition, from the NY Herald, May 11, 1867.


Look what else I found:

Hartford Weekly. November 27, 1869

An order has been issued from the office of the adjutant-general prescribing for the observance of the militia of this State the system of instruction for the drum and fife prepared by Drum Major Strube, of the Twelth New York regiment, and adopted by the war department, and none other is to be observed.

[Sue]

Re: B and E PDF ?

Thanks, Will!

And other thing that pops out at me when I read this--they sure did take their competitions seriously!

Susan Cifaldi