Guitar players, listen up.

[Old Cremona]

From Charles Crozat Converse's 1855 "Method For Guitar."

This tune is so evocative, it gives me a period rush just listening to it. I wish more reenacting guitar players would get in to this kind of stuff.

[50th VA Corporal]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

Thanks for the posting. I play similar ditties all the time, mostly of my own composition because good period material like this evades me. This one will be an easy one to put into the case.

Jas. T. Lemon

[Old Cremona]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

Music is such a powerful tool for what we do. I can think of few things that have the sensory power of "time travel" like music does. The guitar of the day had its nitche-- stately, refined European-style melodies and dances. We have to throw out all our ideas about the modern guitar to get in a proper mind set. But the promised land is just a guitar tutor away. 'Course, you gotta learn to read music to really soak this stuff up. But we work our asses off researching material culture, don't we? Reading guitar music is do-able with a little application.

Sorry if I seem preachy, music like this just really moves mah soul.

[Nathan Dodds]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

Very interesting style... however, I cannot imagine it actually being played by any but upper class aristocrats or big city performers (period pop culture?). Coming especially from the perspective of Southern culture, would the rural regions that spawned the likes of archaic fiddler Uncle Jimmy Thompson (1848 – February 17, 1931) and the distinctly Celtic fiddling of Absie Morrison (1876-1964) have anything to do with this style of music? I know we are talking guitar here, but it doesn't seem to fit the cultural puzzle of rural america during the 1860's. So I would not think this music would be correct for the average working class Southerner at any rate... what do you-all think?

[Old Cremona]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

That's a good question, Nathan, whether the guitar had a reigonal bias, I have not researched that. I have found many surprises in my study of 19th century banjo music; many if not all stereotypes of modern banjo culture have to be throw out to get into a proper 19th century mindset.

I do think a 19th century fiddler would have regularly played dance music that was popular then but has faded now; the polka, the schottische, etc., so it's possible that a "working-class" musician would have played this. It wasn't all jigs and breakdowns. You gotta play what people want to hear. (The polka was HUGE in the 1850's). More research is needed on that, however, so I can't just say this music is appropriate everywhere.

What it is, however, is real, from-the-horses-mouth, music that sounds exactly like our ancestors heard it. That alone makes it worth more attention than it gets from reenacting guitar players.

[Silas]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

When you look at the selection of music in Elias Howe's Instructor for the Guitar (1851), there's a rather limited slice of music. http://archive.org/stream/howesinstr...ge/n5/mode/2up In reading it, I see polite society, chairs and polite clapping.

Then look at Elias Howe's Violin without a Master (1847) there's a wider variety of music. http://archive.org/stream/howesnewvi...ge/n1/mode/2up I see some of the above, but I also see dancing and tunes from the old countries.

Finally compare the music from those two books to the music in Elias Howe's Complete Preceptor for the Banjo (1851) and you'll see a completely different type of music. http://archive.org/stream/completepr...ge/n5/mode/2up This is American music with a popular beat.

All three are published within a short time of each other, but each catered to different players/audiences.

To me, it's the banjo which has the pulse of the antibellum era and the decades beyond. It's the instrument in the forefront. The violin is there, but it doesn't dominate. Yet. The violin will soon have it's day in the forefront, and later eclipsed by the guitar of today. You still hear banjos and violins in modern music, but they are background sound.

Problem is that people of today keep bringing modern instruments with metal strings to reenactments and play nonperiod music in nonperiod styles. I'd like to hear more period music, be it violin, banjo or parlor guitar, played in a style of the day upon instruments constructed like period instruments. Oh yeah, gut strings are mandatory. As noted in Howe's "The Violin and How to Master it,"

Their tone [steel strings] is metallic, it lacks the velvety softness of the gut string ; besides it is always objectionable to have strings of a different kind on a violin.

"Velvety softness of the gut string" is a great line from the past.

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

To me, it's the banjo which has the pulse of the antibellum era and the decades beyond. It's the instrument in the forefront. The violin is there, but it doesn't dominate.

Are you saying that the banjo was more common than the fiddle or are you saying that the banjo was more common than the violin? While the instrument is one and the same, we should make a distinction based on how the instrument is played, correct? While it is true that violin is synonymous with fiddle, fiddle music isn't necessary the same thing as violin music (although there is a lot of common repertoire shared by "fiddlers" and violinists). I thought that the fiddle was more common than the banjo. For one, there are many more surviving fiddles, right? Do we have any evidence to support the claim (if this is what you actually are saying, Silas) that the banjo was more common than the fiddle?

I do think a 19th century fiddler would have regularly played dance music that was popular then but has faded now; the polka, the schottische, etc., so it's possible that a "working-class" musician would have played this.

Don't forget that printed music doesn't necessarily represent what was actually being played (more on this below). Depending on the source, it could, but it doesn't tell the whole story, even though it's about the only documentation we have to work with.

When you look at the selection of music in Elias Howe's Instructor for the Guitar (1851), there's a rather limited slice of music. http://archive.org/stream/howesinstr...ge/n5/mode/2up In reading it, I see polite society, chairs and polite clapping.

Then look at Elias Howe's Violin without a Master (1847) there's a wider variety of music. http://archive.org/stream/howesnewvi...ge/n1/mode/2up I see some of the above, but I also see dancing and tunes from the old countries.

Finally compare the music from those two books to the music in Elias Howe's Complete Preceptor for the Banjo (1851) and you'll see a completely different type of music. http://archive.org/stream/completepr...ge/n5/mode/2up This is American music with a popular beat.

All three are published within a short time of each other, but each catered to different players/audiences.

To me, it's the banjo which has the pulse of the antibellum era and the decades beyond. It's the instrument in the forefront. The violin is there, but it doesn't dominate.

We also must take the printed music into the context of the author/arranger/publisher. Howe was a violinist and started out in the music publishing business by writing down what he heard being played by fiddlers and violinists. He later would repackage the same fiddle music as music for other instruments. In some cases he did supplement the fiddle music with what appears to be true fife music, banjo music, guitar, etc. music in his "School for the Fife", etc., but in many cases up to 100% of the actual tunes in, say, his "School for the Accordeon" may be note for note what he originally published and originally was indeed fiddle music.

You'll find the schottisches, polkas, and the other styles that seem odd to us today in fife books by Howe and Winner and others. They may have simply been "filler" material and not actually played by fifers (Neither Howe nor Winner, for example, played the fife.) There is not much aural tradition to support their use, and the fife books actually written by actual fifers contain mostly quicksteps, camp duty, jigs, and reels. The schottisches and polkas perhaps may have been more common on the banjo, but their presence in fife books at least suggests that a music book with the title "School for the X" might not have really been what was claimed on the cover. Sure, it can be played on the particular instrument (although some of Howe's 1851 fife book is in keys different from the typical G or D major best suited for the fife), but some of it just ain't fife music. By the same logic, just because there is a schottische in a banjo book doesn't mean it was actually played on the banjo.

This concept may seem strange to us to today, because we can't imagine why in 2012 someone who didn't play the guitar would try to publish a guitar book. But 150 years ago it was definitely done. And this makes it very difficult to answer the question posed by Nathan. I think Nathan's "gut" feeling might be right to some extent, even though we can't prove it. The bottom line is that the printed music gives us a biased (or in some cases, inaccurate) picture of the music "scene," but we don't know just how biased. The best sources are probably manuscripts, which are few and far between, but even in those cases they may be heavily regional or personal variations.

[Bill Fean]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

Great discussion here!!

I have recenty picked up a banjo and am learning the whole music scene of the era. Like has been said before, hearing a song played the way it was 150 years ago is a perfect way to " time travel".

Bill Fean

[eric marten]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

As quoted by Mark (Silas) Tackitt:

Problem is that people of today keep bringing modern instruments with metal strings to reenactments and play nonperiod music in nonperiod styles. I'd like to hear more period music, be it violin, banjo or parlor guitar, played in a style of the day upon instruments constructed like period instruments. Oh yeah, gut strings are mandatory.

Mark (Silas):

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Some of the worst offenders in this regard are the "regimental string bands" and "minstrel groups", who dress the part and then pull out their modern 20th century style instrumentals with metal strings. There is no justification for this. Authentic plain gut strings are so accessible now, and no more expensive than the most popular steel and synthetic strings developed in the 20th century. They are also just as easy to play and keep in tune as the steel and synthetic ones.

At the Living History Museum I work at we have 4 of these period style violins in use, played by 4 different fiddlers, including outdoors in the hot humid conditions of summer. The youngest of these reenactor/performers is 14 years old and wouldn't dream of trying to fool the public by performing on steel or synthetic strings. The sound is so totally different, and if these young apprentices can do it, then so can the "string bands" so desperate to sell their CD's to an unsuspecting public. If you approach one of these string band performers at an event, they sometimes try to use an article of clothing, or beard, to cover up their modern hardware, fine tuners and metal strings, but the loud sound of their instruments, with the accompanying "metallic edge" timbre is a dead giveaway and belongs to the 20th century, Grand Ol' Opry, "old timey" jam sessions, etc.

Plain gut strings are what is appropriate at CW events and the performers simply should learn how to play them with ease, with just a little extra practice.

[toccoa42]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

I wish more reenacting guitar players would get in to this kind of stuff.

A long time ago we had a conversation about TimTwiss compiling a tab/staff book for guitar of period songs. Did that ever come about?

[Old Cremona]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

Don't forget that printed music doesn't necessarily represent what was actually being played (more on this below). Depending on the source, it could, but it doesn't tell the whole story, even though it's about the only documentation we have to work with.

By the same logic, just because there is a schottische in a banjo book doesn't mean it was actually played on the banjo.

This concept may seem strange to us to today, because we can't imagine why in 2012 someone who didn't play the guitar would try to publish a guitar book.

I can't speak about Howe or Winner, but I have researched the Converse brothers, Frank and Charles (Charles arranged and published the tune above). Charles studied music in Europe under Ernest Richter, Franz Liszt and Louis Spohr. Frank and Charles were both well respected performers on their respective instruments, as well as busy teachers. If they published it, it was meant to be played.

http://books.google.com/books?id=e8EnL6kLwuUC&lpg=PA68&ots=DSuL5OPvB0&dq=fiddle%20schottische&pg=PA68#v=onepage&q=fiddle%20schottische&f=false

Here is an example of a military ball in 1863 in which a fiddle player plays waltzes, polkas, schottisches, quadrilles, marches, reels...if people danced to it, fiddlers played it. Guitarists played it. Banjoists played it. Band people played it. Gotta have music to dance to...

We can argue what the most important source material is, and that is all well and good; I just want to highlight a considerably under-utilized resource, the Guitar tutor, in which a mostly forgotten style can be revived to our great benefit.

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

Sorry to go off on a tangent. I wasn't talking about Converse, who really did play the guitar. I should have been more clear about that. I was thinking more of the big publishers like Howe that would use the same printing plates from violin books to make "new" books for other instruments just to make a buck.

Howe's United States Regulation Drum and Fife Instructor contains Hohnstock Polka and even has a drumbeat for it. I wonder how many drummers and fifers got a hold of that and tried it out! Seems awful fishy to me.

[Old Cremona]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

Howe's United States Regulation Drum and Fife Instructor contains Hohnstock Polka and even has a drumbeat for it. I wonder how many drummers and fifers got a hold of that and tried it out! Seems awful fishy to me.

I see no reason why fifers wouldn't play a polka. It was huge, man. Banjo tutors, Guitar tutors, Violin tutors, Clairinet tutors, tutors of all kinds were full of polkas, schottisches, hornpipes, reels...

http://books.google.com/books?id=aMwXAAAAYAAJ&ots=d4sTID4frf&dq=violin%20polka&pg=PP7#v=onepage&q=violin%20polka&f=false

[Silas]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

Are you saying that the banjo was more common than the fiddle or are you saying that the banjo was more common than the violin? While the instrument is one and the same, we should make a distinction based on how the instrument is played, correct? While it is true that violin is synonymous with fiddle, fiddle music isn't necessary the same thing as violin music (although there is a lot of common repertoire shared by "fiddlers" and violinists). I thought that the fiddle was more common than the banjo. For one, there are many more surviving fiddles, right? Do we have any evidence to support the claim (if this is what you actually are saying, Silas) that the banjo was more common than the fiddle?

From what I've seen in the antibellum minstrel experience, it's the banjo out front and accompanied by violin. The banjo was the star. As the pitch went up, the violin stepped to the front with the banjo doing the accompanying. Violin became the star.

As for calling the instrument a violin or a fiddle, I'll leave that issue to someone else far more learned in the area than I'll ever be. The instrument looks the same to me. However, I did a quickie search in a couple songsters for the word, violin, and came up empty. Fiddle popped right up. I'll be more careful in my terminology and end with the lyrics from this oldie :

Uncle Gabriel plays de fiddle,
Zip Coon he makes de riddle,
Bone Squash is in de middle,
And dis [Feller] plays de bones.

While the banjo and triangle,
With the cymbals jingle jangle,
And big drum so neat we handle,
'Tis a sin to Uncle Jones.

With our band of music,
With our band of music,
With our band of music,
We can made the air resound.

Song : The Band of [Fellers] from 'Old Virginny State'
Source : Howe's The Ethiopian glee book : containing the songs sung by the Christy Minstrels (1849), page 20.
Link : http://archive.org/stream/ethiopiang...ge/n3/mode/2up

[eric marten]

Re: Guitar players, listen up.

Violin - Fiddle - completely interchangeable - especially in the 19th century - See Ed Heron Allen - "Violin Making as it Was and Is" (c. 1880) covering all aspects of the violin up to the middle 19th century. Violin is a derivative of the word viol (i.e., small viol) and fiddle coexisted as the word use by the common folk. If you say viol and fiddle quickly, they sound almost like different pronunciations of the same word. Whenever a violinist wants to sound "quaint" he'll call it a fiddle. Throughout their existence there was simply one instrument, and two names.