Rogue's March to Honor Antietam Dead?!?

[joewhitney]

Does anybody know who this federal corps was who marched out at the 150th Antietam Reenactment Luminary ceremony beating the drumbeat George Carroll came up with for President Kennedy's funeral?

I know the modern army still uses it today, but unfortunately it is basically the Rogue's March (version from Nevins' 1864 manual shown here). It seems a little odd to play a beat normally reserved for over a hundred years for deserters and prostitutes to honor the casualties of the battle (or for that matter, dead American Presidents!)

I know the manuals are filled with plenty of historic funeral beats and tunes that could be used rather than this one (Dead March in Saul, Roslin Castle, Funeral March No. 1 a.k.a. the Parting Glass to name a few), and we've been trying to stamp out George Carroll's version from reenacting for 20 years. Maybe they need to bring this up more often in training new field musicians!



Joe Whitney

[joewhitney]

Re: Rogue's March to Honor Antietam Dead?!?

Here's the photo. Hope this works. Manaing attachments in this program are not easy.

Joe Whitney

[NY Pvt]

Re: Rogue's March to Honor Antietam Dead?!?

WoW, unfortunately your photo shows some other equally "disturbing" details of this event. But doesn't surprise me.

Just more reason to support why we don't attend those events.

[joewhitney]

Re: Rogue's March to Honor Antietam Dead?!?

You have no idea! I'm seriously tempted to not attend another mainstream event ever. Between the funnel cakes, loudspeakers, bleachers, modern buildings, etc. it was more like a county fair than anything Civil War (with tons of obviously female soldiers thrown in). I've been doing this for 27 years, and I felt there like we'd gone backward, not forward. Will has a point, as from what i heard the evening fife and drum jams there played some modern New England favorites, colonial flute melodies, B&E gems and Carroll composed drum beats.

But the Kennedy-Rogues March has always annoyed the hell out of me. George Carroll used to rant against it when he reenacted, and he came up with the damn thing! It's also exactly twice the tempo of actual period funeral music, as in let's hurry up and bury the SOB!

Joe Whitney

[MikeQ]

Re: Rogue's March to Honor Antietam Dead?!?

Joe, it looks like a We definitely were playing the New England style that evening. While I, as always, enjoyed playing again, the introduction of authentic field music to mainstream reenacting is a troublesome beast. The last time I was doing events east was when Don Hubbard was trying to reorganize things (I've been away for a while...) on a promising note, I sat down and explained the concept of Field Music utilization combo of all the Union Corps that were there save Calvert Arms Fife and Drum. This was my first event in eight years and it was....well sad. The Confederate Field Music (that is said with irony) didn't exist, but one must do what they can. I missed the memo on the hobby splitting into multiple engagements,but firmly side with not heading down the ill choice of wandering in blind to an event again.

to some of the Officers of the unit I happenstances upon and they expressed desire that having musicians perform orders would be an admirable thing (so long as they had a method of learning the calls) which brings me back to square one....in whatever side of the hobby we all portray, without Command involvement, we won't be able to put it all together accurately. At some point we have to set a standard of what are the acceptable calls to perform (I was a B&E drummer, then I started reading this forum and looking at all of my manuels). Maybe a good article for publication and dissemination to the Various Commanders starts the ball rolling. Once we all set a standard. With that we can kill things like happening again (George has been trying to kill this songs literally for decades....why are people still playing it!)

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[33rdaladrummer]

Re: Rogue's March to Honor Antietam Dead?!?

Poor George. He couldn't have been more clear about what he was trying to do:

"In this work, I have taken the liberty of transcribing the early military airs of this country, and added side and bass drum parts of my own composition. Heretofore, there has been no work such as this, with the exceptions of one or two selections. It is not meant that the drum beatings to these tunes become standard, or is it implied that they necessarily have to be used with their companion fife selections."

-George Carroll, the Carroll Collection of Ancient Martial Music

Along with the Kennedy funeral beat, I also wish someone could kill these "Carroll tunes" and beats: Ah Ca Ira, Chain Cotillion, First of September, The Harriot, Harum Scarum, Pleasures of Spa. Three of them (First of September, Harum Scarum, and Pleasures of Spa) are from an obscure fife manual published in 1805 and found in no other sources. If George hadn't discovered this book then no one would be playing them today. Those three, at least, probably weren't even popular in 1805 much less 1865. The other tunes popularized by Colonial Williamsburg may have been popular decades before but seemed to have waned in popularity to the point that mid 19th century fifers would have been completely unfamiliar with them. The French tune, Marsailles Hymn, was most definitely played in 1861, Ah Ca Ira probably not so much. There are so many other tunes known to have been favorites during the 1860s that are ignored or neglected today simply because the Carroll "standards" have been played perpetually since the 1960s. The Carroll tunes along with B&E form the core repertoire for many fifers so that there's not much room for much else.

Oh and that beat most drummers play for Granny Will Your Dog Bite...George wrote that one too, and it sounds nothing like any documented Civil War drumbeat.

I hope I don't come across as bashing George...I just think people misunderstand the purpose of his reviving old tunes...it wasn't for Civil War reenactors to play...just like that one beat was composed for JFK's funeral and not meant to be played at Antietam!

[Mike_Schramm]

Re: Rogue's March to Honor Antietam Dead?!?

Does anybody know who this federal corps was who marched out at the 150th Antietam Reenactment Luminary ceremony beating the drumbeat George Carroll came up with for President Kennedy's funeral?

I know the modern army still uses it today, but unfortunately it is basically the Rogue's March (version from Nevins' 1864 manual shown here). It seems a little odd to play a beat normally reserved for over a hundred years for deserters and prostitutes to honor the casualties of the battle (or for that matter, dead American Presidents!)
...
Joe Whitney

That was the USV honoring their recently fallen commander, Brig. General Richard Dussinger.

[joewhitney]

Re: Rogue's March to Honor Antietam Dead?!?

Very commendable, and Will, George Carroll and I are probably the only ones who would have known the difference. But after all these years and efforts to train field musicians, hearing it again just made me think "We finally seemed to have purged the bagpipes from reenactments, but Jesus, will this beat never die?"

Granted, there's usually little opportunity for field music reenactors to use the real funeral beats and marches, but considering how ever present death was in the army (anybody else catch that special recently on death and the Civil War?), there should be some scenarios enacted utilizing it. This would have been a great opportunity for it.

The Soldier's Dream would have been good, and it's in both Howe and B&E. Or, the first funeral beat in Howe's is the Dead March from Handel's opera Saul (documented played at Stonewall Jackson's funeral). Both beats are actually almost identical to the "Street Beat" (tap...tap...tap tap tap...) which is often played by reenacting musicians on the march, but with rolls added.

Of course, other than the tempo, the most obvious difference would be that all of these beats required muffled drums, either half the drums muffled, or all. This can be done by either (in order of preference) A. draping the head in black crepe material, B. placing a piece of soft material, or even the drag rope, under the snares, or C. untensioning the drum so the snares no longer rattle. The unmuffled snares rolling with the beat of the snare and/or bass drum produce quite an authentic, emotional and memorable effect.

Joe Whitney

[EF32dINdrummer]

Re: Rogue's March to Honor Antietam Dead?!?

Hi Joe, Dane, MikeQ, Will, Mike S...

A few comments, respectfully, on a very interesting discussion:

Has anyone else read that the black crape/crepe was used to cover not the head, but the shell of the drum, or more specifically, the regimental crest or emblem, to hide it? Alas, I cannot recall where I read this.

Interpreting Nevin’s beatings can be challenging, but in the “Rogue’s March” #14 p17, the 1/4 note with the beam thru the stem is not a roll symbol, but the “poing stroke-hard”. I would submit that, without rolls, this beating bears only a slight resemblance to the Carroll/Kennedy funeral beat.

If B+E & Hart (& Strube) all state “all drums muffled”, and Howe is the only source saying some drums remain unmuffled, I would suggest that the former is considered correct. Hart p57 goes on to say “...(covered and) muffled going to the grave...(uncovered and) unmuffled returning...”

I would heartily agree that a (well-done) funeral scenario would be fitting and instructive. Other scenarios that I hope others would like to see are: “Long Roll”, “The General/Striking the Tents” and “Drumming Out”. The last might be fairly easy--a fifer, a drummer, four guys with arms reversed and a “victim” (I pack a “thief” sign in with my tent pegs), and then march up and down the company streets and out of camp...

It’s encouraging, even admirable, that some effort to reduce non-period or uncommon music is being made, but how would one go about imposing such restrictions? Perhaps keeping the “correct” material for the time in camp and on the march, but saving “suspect” selections for the “jam”, as a compromise.

I look forward to your comments...

Ed Fredriks

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: Rogue's March to Honor Antietam Dead?!?

It’s encouraging, even admirable, that some effort to reduce non-period or uncommon music is being made, but how would one go about imposing such restrictions? Perhaps keeping the “correct” material for the time in camp and on the march, but saving “suspect” selections for the “jam”, as a compromise.

Ed Fredriks

It's a difficult question you pose, Ed. Hope you don't find my response to cynical!

Regarding jams, I know I am in the minority, but I'm not a big fan of them in general. Maybe it's just me, but when I put on the uniform for a living history, reenactment, or for a parade, I get the most enjoyment from playing the tunes and the style of drumming that would have been familiar to the men who would have originally heard it 150 years ago. That's the whole point, right? As with jams, I guess drinking beer in the parking lot is not really part of the reenactment, but if you're at a Civil War related event, why not play strictly Civil War music? Now there are not any authenticity guidelines (nor should there be any) for jams, but unfortunately, musicians learn from other musicians and when a jam is filled with anachronistic tunes and drumbeats and/or tunes that aren't typical of what 99% of soldiers were familiar with, it only contributes to the problems of the wrong music being prevalent at the type of events where the stated goal is an as-accurate-as-possible recreation of the sights, sounds, and events of 150 years ago.

Now there are differing opinions on what correct music is. Some people say if it's in a manual then it's correct. Others think if it's "old enough" then that's all you need to prove. Others might say that a new drumbeat composed "in the style" of the period is appropriate. These and other lines of reasoning have their merits and pitfalls, but until someone invents a time machine, we'll never really know. Many people have moved away from being so Old Guard/Colonial Williamsburg/Deep River/Bruce/Emmett centric, but sadly, if some reenactor-musicians could go back in time and find what they were playing was almost or completely alien to 99% or even 100% of soldiers, they would probably continue to play it anyway. That has already been proven with instruments, because most reenactor-drummers refuse to remove the mufflers from their drums, even though the practice of placing strips of felt or webbing or rags underneath drumheads wasn't invented until sometime in the 20th century. (This is different from the funeral type of muffling discussed earlier in this thread.) Or they use plastic aka fiberskyn drumheads. Or they play fifes modeled after one designed around the 1940s (Model F). Most of these are no-brainers, but sadly, as long as you can play "Hell on the Wabash" you are best thing since sliced bread and these anachronisms are overlooked. (N.B. I would like to see evidence that suggests that Hell on the Wabash was more commonly played than jaguar skin trousers were worn.)

Maybe it's a good compromise, but saving the sketchy music for jams isn't going to help the "don't know any better" group of musicians playing the wrong music on the wrong instruments. And as long as the "know better but just don't care" group includes many talented and experienced musicians, that is what is going to be emulated.

The only remedy in my opinion: education. Official authenticity guidelines don't work and aren't enforceable. But if they did, and someone picked me to write them, here'd be an example:

Before you play the Harriot and Paddy on a Handcar for the 1000th time this weekend...play something that was very popular 150 years ago but seldom played today:

' "Larry O'Gaff,"...and many others whose lively bars played by a good fife and drum corps, dispelled the weariness of a long march.'

-History of the Seventeenth regiment, New Hampshire volunteer infantry. 1862-1863 by Charles Nelson Kent

'Our repertoire was somewhat limited and not very artistic...and consisted principally of marches and quick-steps [such as] "Larry O'Gaff," '

-A History of the 148th Pennsylvania by Joseph Wendel Muffly

' Ten or twelve days since, our corps was ordered to the left of where we now are...the division band, played...after which the brass bands played..."Larry O'Gaff" '

-Drum Taps in Dixie by Delevan Miller

[joewhitney]

Re: Rogue's March to Honor Antietam Dead?!?

Ed, I agree those notes with the beams through them were poing strokes, not rolls, but I still believe the resemblance is pretty obvious, given the sounds of the two beats. Different styles of rolling was often done with the Rogue's March, including substituting 5 stroke rolls for the strokes.

Attached is a list of some early examples of the Rogue's March, most of which maintain the basic structure of both beats, including the distinctive 15th beat.

Some may still say the resemblance is not strong enough (or not there at all), and I respect their viewpoint. But either way, Carroll's beat is either A. a modern version of a not very respectable historic beat, or B. a brand new beat never played before November 25, 1963. Either way, it has no place at a Civil War reenactment/living history.

And I have to agree with Will 100% that what is heard at reenactments and living histories bears little resemblance to what would have been heard originally. Having played historic fife and drum music for forty years now, I'm afraid with all the emphasis over the last decade or so on teaching field musicians, I haven't seen much improvement in the field. And unfortunately, the infantry trust in the music, and assume they are hearing the right stuff being played, just as they assume their officers are giving the correct commands. How wrong they are!

I like a good beer-soaked jam as much as the next guy, but anachronistic music at historic events is like any other type of modernity; once you open the door and start letting it in, it's hard to remove. As long as the leaders in the music field continue to tolerate or even encourage even a little of the wrong music being played, and it's also put on CD's and sold as "Civil War" music, musical authenticity will be as lost a cause as the Confederacy was!

Joe Whitney