British Grenadiers and Other Marches

[James Taub]

Hey all,

I had a quick question regarding fife and drum music. At Maryland My Maryland there was an excellent Federal fife and drum group following the 7th Wisconsin. I heard them playing the British Grenadiers march during the weekend, and I was wondering if this was a normal tune during the war? Not only that, but other British, French and Prussian marches as well. I know that several British marches such as Garryowen, The Girl I Left Behind me and The Campbells are Coming were regularly used, but I'm talking about the ones that most people think of today as strictly European.

Thanks

Jim Taub

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

I was at Maryland My Maryland and heard two "Prussian" tunes played. One was "Some Distance from Prussia," which is most likely a post-war tune. Another was the "Prussian Reveille," from Bruce and Emmett's 1862 Drummers' and Fifers' Guide. Chances are that "Some Distance from Prussia" was never played during the war because it didn't even exist at the time. "The Prussian Reveille" was probably very rarely heard because the tactics manuals and other publications contain Slow Scotch, Austrian, Hessian, Dutch, Quick Scotch, and sometimes Dawn of the Day and a few others as reveille tunes, but the Prussian is found only in "B&E". My guess is that Bruce or Emmett added a new tune and kept the tradition of using an "international" title for the reveille tunes. By the way, there is no evidence that the Austrian, Hessian, and Dutch tunes actually came from those countries. On the other hand, the first tune of the reveille, Three Camps, is the old English reveille. And the Quick Scotch tune used from about 1850 through the war was "The Fairy Dance," which was composed by the Scottish Fiddler Niel Gow, IIRC. Might have been his son Nathaniel.

A real Prussian tune commonly played by reenactors is Hohenfriedberger's March. It is certainly an old enough tune, but was it well-known in America in the 1860s? The main reason reeactor fifers play it is because Colonial Williamsburg started playing it many years ago. Many of the tunes in the Colonial Williamsburg repertoire aren't representative of Civil War era fife music, or even 18th century fife music for that matter. Playing the same tunes other reenactors play is generally a bad idea because there are modern influences and many of the influencial fife and drum corps from the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s had to "reinvent the wheel" when coming up with tunes to play. Unfortunately many of these tunes have become standards with reenactors and everybody assumes they are appropriate.

British Grenadiers would probably have been much more commmonly played than Prussian or French tunes, but more research would be needed to determine if it was as common in America as in Britain. British Grenadiers is in B&E.

The Minstrel tune, Alabama Joe, was based on the French melody Le Petit Tambour. Le Petit Tambour is is Hart's 1862 Instructor for the Drum.

Marseillaise Hymn is documented to be played by Confederates early in the war. A version is in Howe's 1862 U.S. Regulation Drum and Fife Instructor.

Can't think of any other French tunes reenactors play except for Ah Ca Ira, which some say is an earlier version of Downfall of Paris even though the tunes are completely different except for the first few measures. Many reenactors play medleys of old/new versions of tunes like Welcome Here Again/Old 1812 and Ah Ca Ira/Downfall of Paris I suppose because they are musically pleasing and show the possible evolution of tunes over time, but Civil War reenactors should be focusing on the four years between 1861 and 1865. Sure, some tunes from earlier periods were still popular during the Civil War, but many died out and many tunes commonly thought to common Rev War tunes weren't all that popular or well-known in 1776 much less 1861.

Most anything British is probably fair game. The real Prussian tunes might be best suited for regiments with a large percentage of "Dutchmen," but even then I would be careful with assumptions.

Note to Civil War reenactor fifers: quit playing Williamsburg tunes such as the Harriot, Chain Cotillion, Pleasures of Spa, Turkish March, Ah Ca Ira, First of September, Brandywine, Capt MacIntosh, and Hohenfriedberger's March unless you can provide documentation or even a little evidence that suggests they were played during the 1860s.

[cprljohnivey]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

Will,

You're breaking my heart.... I love Harriot and Brandywine. Oh well... guess I got to dump those.

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

Brad,

The Harriot is in the 1818 edition of The Massachusetts Collection of Martial Musick. The author, Alvan Robinson, Jr., also put out revisions in 1820 and 1826, removing and adding some tunes. The Harriot is only in the 1818 edition.

You can find other tunebooks that have the Harriot by going to http://www.colonialdancing.org/Easmes/Index.htm and clicking on "Texts" and finding the Harriot in the alphabetical listing. Some of them may be different tunes that share the same name. The tune called the Harriot in "New and Compleat Instructions for the Fife" by Preston, 1796, is the same tune based on the do-rey-mi-fa-so-la-ti notation //33/123//44/221//7-7-/5-6-7-

The evidence seems to indicate that the Harriot was popular in the early 1800s, but the last time it appears in print was 43 years before the Civil War.

It's possible that some of the tunes popular in the early 1800s were still played in the 1860s. Yankee Doodle and White Cockade certainty were. So I don't have a problem with some tunes from earlier periods being played at Civil War events (actually the bigger problem with the Harriot is the drumbeat George Carroll wrote). It's just that too much emphasis is placed on tunes from the Colonial Williamsburg/Old Guard/modern New England repertoire, and as a result, tunes we know were popular during the Civil War are neglected.

I was looking through Howe's circa 1843 Musician's Companion and saw "Quick March in the Battle of Prague". You know it as Turkish March. There you have a later source for this earlier tune. This is an example of the research that needs to be done. But at Civil War events I hear Turkish March or even Hohenfriedberger's March being played much more often than, say, Home Sweet Home, Rory O'More, Larry O'Gaff, Charlie Over the Water, or Haste to the Wedding, so everything needs to be put in perspective of what the common musician or soldier would have been familiar with. For me, that's the key issue raised in Jim's original posting. Sure, we know many of these tunes existed and were probably played to some extent, but how representative are they of the repertoire of Civil War field musicians?

If you take the "top 40" group of tunes played by Civil War reenactors and compared it to a list of the most common tunes played by fifers during the war, many of them wouldn't be in the top 40, top 100, or even top 1000 list of what was truly popular.

[James Taub]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

Thanks for the response. Very interesting. I had noticed the same thing about the Williamsburg tunes, and was going to ask that question as well. I am not a musician, but appropriate music has always been a pet peeve of mine. (As an Iron Brigade reenactor it ticks me off when I hear Hell on the Wabash.)

I did read an account recently of several regiments from New Orleans being played out of town with La Marseillaise. I know it was popular with revolutionary movements in the 19th century, so I figured some of the other French Revolution tunes went with it.

Thanks

Jim Taub

[Silas]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

The Minstrel tune, Alabama Joe, was based on the French melody Le Petit Tambour. Le Petit Tambour is Hart's 1862 Instructor for the Drum.

I've heard Le Petit Tambour and noticed some similarity between it and some of Alabama Joe. At Ft. Sumter last year, the fife and drum guys frequently played Le Petit Tambour. Since Alabama Joe is a tune I play regularly on banjo, I had ear worm problems after they stopped playing because I would follow their playing of the "B" part with the "A" part of Alabama Joe. Many worse songs to have stuck in one's head.

Since I see that Alabama Joe is from 1840, I wondered about your statement that it followed Le Petit Tambour. Hart is from 1862 and Alabama Joe is a couple decades older than that.

Here's a link to Alabama Joe : http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/ot...&REGION=LSMBox (Note : the first item is the 1844 version. It's the second item which is from 1840.)

Here's a link to the page of Hart which has Le Petit Tambour : http://www.fifedrum.org/resources/mu...es/hart36s.png

I did a search for Tambour and found this version from 1824 : http://digital.nls.uk/special-collec...fm?id=87683584 Although it has the same name as in Hart, it's a little different, but not too different from Hart. Generally speaking, Hart's has a few more notes tossed into the measures which adds a bit more spice to the melody. I hadn't seen this UK collection before and am going to do a little prowling there. Looks like fun to me.

[joewhitney]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

A lot of this comes down to whether you are trying to present a common picture of the Civil War or a narrow, specific element. If you say that Hell On the Wabash should never be played because it is in only one manual, and not the most commonly published manual at that, then you should say that there should never be Zouaves at any event, since they represented a microscopically small portion of the overall armies, and you would need tens of thousands more common soldier reenactors present in order to accurately portray the Zouaves' numbers.

Accurately representing rare impressions would mean we reenactors and the public would almost never get to experience what Zouaves and other rare, odd and really interesting impressions looked like. Likewise, performing only the small list of the most commonly played tunes, regardless of the musical quality of the melody or drum beat or whether they were interesting or boring, and always performing them only in the common, basic manner that the majority of the musicians probably would have performed them in, would not only deprive us of many really cool sounding tunes and beats popular today, but would also make the music, and consequently reenacting in general, a lot more boring and uninteresting to the public. It would also drive away many of the most experienced reenactor musicians, who would probably be bored to death playing only simple tunes in a simple manner all the time!

On the other hand, only playing rare or difficult tunes or beats all of the time would be extremely farby! The best method is a good compromise whereby most of the music played is what was commonly played back then played in a common manner, with a few rare and/or difficult gems thrown in to keep things interesting and allow the experienced players to show what they can do! To a degree reenacting is the distillation of the entire war into a relative handful of performers on a tiny piece of land. It always will be, and should be, a portrayal of both the ordinary and the extraordinary.

Joe Whitney

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

Personally I have heard enough of the tunes that were probably very rare 150 years ago but in the "top 10" at reenactments today-- tunes like Hell of the Wabash, Fireman's Quickstep, and most of the Colonial Williamsburg "Rev War" tunes. The Zouave impression analogy makes for a good point, but I think a better analogy would be showing up at event and finding a huge number of not only zouave uniforms, but also jaguar skin trousers, shako hats, flintlock muskets, WWI and WWII uniforms, and M-16s. That is truly how biased and polluted the hobby's field music repertoire is.

The good advice given to reenactors concerning uniforms-- look at originals, not the reproductions your fellow hobbyists are wearing-- could be translated to field musicians. Nevermind what is on most of the "Civil War" fife and drum CDs and played at the Remembrance Day jam at O'Rourke's. Look at the tunes mentioned in regimental histories, newspapers, and the dozen or so manuals published in the 1850s and 1860s.

[joewhitney]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

The Colonial Williamsburg tunes, and actually most of the repertoire from Revolutionary war reenacting, should be right out. Most of them were actually melodies from flute manuscripts and general collections of popular tunes from that period, because that is all the researchers had to work with back at the beginning of the Bicentennial. Thanks to all of the fife manuscripts and manuals we have discovered since then, we now know that most of those tunes weren't even typically played by fifers from that time period, let alone the Civil War! And the actual drumbeats from the late 18th and early 19th centuries bore little resemblance to the drumbeats that were dreamed up for the tunes in the last century.

The jam session at O'Rourke's typically lasts about seven hours, and covers just about all the ground, including many of the most commonly play fife tunes and drumbeats from the Civil War period...although sometimes you have to wait a few hours to hear them!

Joe Whitney

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

The jam session at O'Rourke's typically lasts about seven hours, and covers just about all the ground, including many of the most commonly play fife tunes and drumbeats from the Civil War period...although sometimes you have to wait a few hours to hear them!

Many people might interpret your statement to mean that hanging out at O'Rourke's for 7 hours on Remembrance Day would give you a good idea of what fifers and drummers played during the war. But that simply is not true.

Examples of the most commonly played tunes at jams are rare B&E tunes like Hell on the Wabash and Sole Leather Q.S., Williamsburg tunes like the Harriot and Harum Scarum, and post-war New England tunes like Some Distance from Prussia and Grandfather's Clock.

Sure, you'll probably hear Dixie and Yankee Doodle at O'Rourke's, and maybe if you hang out long enough you'll hear true Civil War standards like Wait for the Wagon, Ole Zip Coon, Arkansas Traveler, and the Campbells are Coming, but really the focus is on stuff that wasn't well-known or didn't even exist during the period 1861-1865.

And I don't know how in the world what's played at O'Rourke's could represent the most commonly played drumbeats from the war when many of them were written by George Carroll in the 1960s and 70s. Besides a few exceptions like Army 2-4 and Army 6-8 and the occasional Howe or Hart beat, most of the drumbeats played by reenactors are only found in B&E.

Even if one were to play only drumbeats from Hart, Howe, and B&E, they're no way to back of a claim that "these are the most commonly used beats played during the war." I'm not saying there's a better alternative, but it's a really small sample to use to draw conclusions about the thousands of drummers from the U.S. and C.S. armies.

[joewhitney]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

I was there for quite a few hours, but I never heard Grandfather's Clock, whereas very quickly I heard "Old Zip Coon" and "Arkansas Traveler". I feel to give a good critique of something, it's best to attend it. And I doubt seriously that many would interpret my statement "including many of the tunes actually played" as saying you'd get a good idea of what was "typically played" during the war by hanging out at O'Rourke's.

Of course, some people don't pay as close attention as they should to the actual statements people make, and instead form quick or blanket opinions, but I can't help that. But on the plus side, I think the people on this forum in general are pretty sharp, and know exactly what I was saying, and what you are saying, and probably agree with both of us!

For example, there's really no excuse for using modern drumbeats when there are plenty of good ones in the manuals that are still untapped. Who after all plays the Army 6/8 in Hart (which he called "The Plain 6-8 Quick Step" where the B part starts with three 7's? That beat rocks, but no one plays it! Also, B&E No. 7 wasn't dreamed up by either Bruce or Emmett, as it's the old French Quickstep march, which Winfield Scott copied right into the official US infantry tactics manual. Whether these were commonly played during the war or not, we may never know, but it's really all we have to work with so far, and it's better than anything composed postwar.

Along those lines… I noticed that a very popular tune, Jobe's Quickstep, is now regularly being beat with the drumbeat from Drums and Guns. Long ago, I went through just about every period dumbeat trying to find an appropriate match for Jobes (because it's one of my favorites) and the only one that came close was the Fort McHenry Quickstep (as beat by Drum Major George Riggs) from Bruce & Emmett. Granted, we will never know exactly how common that particular drumbeat was, or if it was ever paired with another tune, but we do know that Drums and Guns was not paired with any tune from the Civil War, since Roy Watrous composed it in 1947! So I'd like to see some corps try the two on for size, and see how they like it.

The tune Fort McHenry, by the way, was not dreamed up by George Bruce or Dan Emmett either, because it was called the "Virginia March" in Norris and Sawyers "The Village Fifer", published in Exeter, New Hampshire in 1808.

Joe Whitney

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

I was there for quite a few hours, but I never heard Grandfather's Clock

I have heard it there before.

I feel to give a good critique of something, it's best to attend it.

I wasn't there this year, but have attended several times.

For example, there's really no excuse for using modern drumbeats when there are plenty of good ones in the manuals that are still untapped. Who after all plays the Army 6/8 in Hart (which he called "The Plain 6-8 Quick Step" where the B part starts with three 7's? That beat rocks, but no one plays it!

I think the Carolina Fifes and Drums plays that one, or at least some slight variations of it on their CD. Probably the reason it isn't played as much is because as the title indicates, it's rather plain. The beat Liberty Hall plays for Coal Black Rose is a 2-4 version of that plain 6-8 beat from Hart. (B strain: 7 7 7 flam flam)

Along those lines… I noticed that a very popular tune, Jobe's Quickstep, is now regularly being beat with the drumbeat from Drums and Guns.

That is a moot point, because Jobe's Q.S. didn't appear in print until 1905, so the tune itself may be postwar. We really should be focusing on what we know was definitely played during the war or probably was played, not what might have been played.

The line of thinking that leads to impressions that would be considered farby if applied to uniforms and drill are unfortunately generally accepted in the field music side of the hobby, where sadly, personal preferences trump documentation.

Jobe's Quickstep, first published in 1905, is regularly played at CW events along with a drumbeat composed in the 1940s.

Corn Cob Clog, first published in 1905, is regularly played at CW events with a 20th century drumbeat (Old Guard?).

There are many more examples of tunes from the 1905 AVF that may be post-war being played by reenactors with post-1905 drumbeats. Playing 1860s drumbeats with these tunes wouldn't necessarily make them authentic.

Instead of worrying about the questionable AVF stuff, consider the many tunes that we have better evidence of being actually played by drummers and fifers during the war but are seldom or never played today: Kinloch, Bonny Doon, Rory O'More, Larry O'Gaff, Haste to the Wedding, Charley Over the Water, Who'll Be King but Charley, Fifer's Delight, Dog and Gun, Beaux of Oak Hill, My Love is but a Lassie Yet, Roving Sailor, Jolly Soldier, Bonny Boat, and last but not least, perhaps the most popular tune from the war, Home Sweet Home. When's the last time you heard one of those at a jam.

Here's a good reference thread, where one can see evidence of these tunes' wartime popularity : http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...War-Fife-Tunes

[joewhitney]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

And after you burn through those 15 simple tunes in about 20 minutes or so, then what you do the rest of the weekend? Boooooring! That's like pulling 15 of the simplest maneuvers out of all three volumes of tactics and saying everybody everywhere can only reenact a tiny handful of the most commonly performed maneuvers.

Limiting all musicians everywhere to just a handful of simple tunes, when there is published evidence that they had many hundreds of others to choose from, and the ability levels of different corps ran the entire spectrum from untalented novices to world-class musicians, isn't exactly authentic either. That's the problem with absolutism in historical interpretation. It reduces the entire hobby to a two dimensional, and usually pretty boring, group of cardboard cutout soldiers. In order for the public to be fascinated with the war, the war has to be fascinating!

There is also the fact that not only are we historical interpreters, we are also supposed to be musicians, and people expect musicians to entertain them, and well! Especially true if you are trying to get them to buy a CD of your music (itself not exactly an authentic practice). My Dog and Gun, Slow Scotch, Star Spangled Banner and Yank My Noodle may be authentic, but they're also four of the most boring tunes imaginable. Just as you can give a dry historical lecture which is completely accurate, but completely boring and drive away the public (I've seen it happen many times), you can also give a musical demonstration that may dumb down four years of music into one tiny boring set list...boring to the public that has to hear it, and boring to experienced musicians dying to also do something interesting with their weekend time.

There's plenty of evidence that the original field musicians liked to fancy things up every chance they got, so I would still argue for a mix of the few basic standard tunes and beats, and a few of the rarer, more complicated and interesting tunes and beats to boot.

Joe Whitney

[33rdaladrummer]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

You are making a strawman out of this argument. I never said every reenactor should stick to a list of the same 15 most common tunes from the war. All I am saying is many of the tunes most commonly played by reenactors weren't all that popular 150 years ago, and that many of the tunes that WERE popular 150 years ago are not played because people haven't heard of them-- they're too busy learning all the tunes that are popular today regardless of whether or not they were popular or even existed 150 years ago.

And while it is probably true that the most commonly played tunes tended to be simpler, complicated pieces were definitely played. Dashing White Sergeant, Guilderoy, Beaux of Oak Hill, Devil's Dream, Cuckoo's Nest, Flowers of Edinburgh, Larry O'Brien, Rickett's Hornpipe, Arkansas Traveler, College Hornpipe, Soldier's Joy, Huntsman's Hornpipe are all difficult tunes for fifers and we have evidence that supports their popularity. There are many others. I am just giving some examples.

There is no evidence that Corn Cob Clog or Jobe's Quickstep even date back to the war, but they are played much more commonly than many of the tunes I have mentioned.

If you took a random sample of 10 reenactors and asked them what their favorite fife and drum tune was, I would not be surprised if 5 of them said Hell on the Wabash. But if you had a time machine and could poll 10 soldiers from 150 years ago, one of the favorites might be Larry O'Gaff, but based on the evidence we have today, I would expect none of them to say Hell on the Wabash. Yet Hell on the Wabash is played to death, but I've never heard a reenactor drum corps play Larry O'Gaff.

Fireman's Quickstep is another tune that is a reenactor favorite, but was it popular 150 years ago? Probably not.

I suppose we may have gone off on a tangent in this thread, but maybe not. The original question was about whether or not British Grenadiers and Prussian and French tunes were played as commonly during the war as they are played by reenactors. The point I have been trying to make is that in general, reenactor musicians' choice of tunes has more to do with what they like and what other reenactors play and what has been recorded on CDs than with trying to play the favorite tunes of the actual musicians that served in the U.S. and C.S. armies. Don't expect information about the actual wartime popularity of tunes to be much of a factor in reenactors' choices.

One of the things Jim wrote was "I was wondering if this was a normal tune during the war." What I have experienced being a musician in this hobby since 1989 is that most reenactors either don't know or don't care.

And as far as appealing to the general public is concerned, I've heard all the excuses for putting a modern spin on the music or putting emphasis on the non "boring" tunes. It mostly just comes down to rationalizing why someone could be wearing a reproduction uniform yet be giving a biased version of history or worse, willingly misrepresenting history.

Why is everybody playing Hell on the Wabash all the time any different than everyone wearing gaitors? Music should be held to the same standard as everything else in this hobby.

[James Taub]

Re: British Grenadiers and Other Marches

Why is everybody playing Hell on the Wabash all the time any different than everyone wearing gaitors? Music should be held to the same standard as everything else in this hobby.

Agreed. In my honest non- musician opinion, hearing correct music is very important for me, just as it would be for the boys back in the day. One of my big turn offs is when I am marching into a fight and hear something I know is not appropriate. Its just as bad for me to hear as bagpipes.

Jim Taub