De-farbing a fiddle?

[Sweatshop_Tailor]

Could someone kindly direct me to information on how to 'de-farb' a fiddle for 1860s living history performance? On contemporary tintypes, etc. it is clear that there are no chin rests. Was nothing at all used in this respect? Also should all strings be pure gut strings? I know these are available from 'early music merchants', but any suggestions would be welcome! Finally, did they have fine tuners in the 1860s or was everything done with the peg box?

Thanks in Advance!
K.C. MacDonald
Lazy Jacks Mess

[fidlr1]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

Could someone kindly direct me to information on how to 'de-farb' a fiddle for 1860s living history performance? On contemporary tintypes, etc. it is clear that there are no chin rests. Was nothing at all used in this respect? Also should all strings be pure gut strings? I know these are available from 'early music merchants', but any suggestions would be welcome! Finally, did they have fine tuners in the 1860s or was everything done with the peg box?

Thanks in Advance!
K.C. MacDonald
Lazy Jacks Mess

Fortunately, fiddles haven't changed much since 150 years ago. Chin-rests were rare, but in existence at the time (we had a discussion on this forum recently). Gut strings yes, steel strings didn't arrive 'til much later. And yes, no fine tuners--gut strings should bhe perfectly tuneable with friction pegs, as long as the pegs are well-fitted (classical players today
who use gut do not use fine tuners with them). So string it with gut, no fine tuners & you're period correct!

[Maine Volunteer]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

Fortunately, fiddles haven't changed much since 150 years ago. Chin-rests were rare, but in existence at the time (we had a discussion on this forum recently). Gut strings yes, steel strings didn't arrive 'til much later. And yes, no fine tuners--gut strings should bhe perfectly tuneable with friction pegs, as long as the pegs are well-fitted (classical players today
who use gut do not use fine tuners with them). So string it with gut, no fine tuners & you're period correct!

Very true, violin design circa mid 1800's is very close to modern design. I concur, gut strings still preferred by professionals today, no fine tuners. However, the chinrest was introduced in 1833 and was in wide use by the mid 1800's. The increasing complexity of compositions and need to rapidly access the upper fingering positions en vogue at the time made this a requisite. This would have been secured either by the 'simple fitting' a bridged pair of metal bars of the more expensive English 'Hill' fitting. it is entirely appropriate to drape a kerchief over the chinrest to avoid skin irritation.

Depending on how far you want to go, the pegs at the time (the 'hollow' peg) were a bit more broad and flat; the more modern 'Boudin' peg was coming onto the scene, but not until a little after the C.W..

The tailpiece was a bit thinner and less broad, and were secured ( in this transitional time) in two manners ; above the tailpiece (en caveliere) or the newer under the tailpiece method which was in response to the higher bridges being installed at the time to achieve the newer robust sound desired by composers and musicians at the time.

The bow had now moved on to the 'Tourte' design close to the modern bow except the head was more blunt and the frog more abbreviated, and the winding would have been of silk.

The interior maker label would be more problematical, if yours has one. You'll have to find a period maker and doctor up a label to cover up the modern label. If not, this is better.
If you want a homespun design, you'll have to sand or hack off most of the finer wood detailing on the scroll, rough up the fine precision lines on your viol & smack it around a bit; most of the examples i've examined of homemade violins from the time very evidently show 'crude' design practices, quite easily distinguishable from the formal violins available today.

[Jarnagin]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

Try this link. There are several pictures of early violins.

http://www.vintage-instruments.com/navigate/catidx5.htm

[Sweatshop_Tailor]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

Thank you gentlemen!

Two questions to follow on from these:
1) is there a good source for an 1860s-style chinrest?
2) just to confirm: when we are talking 'gut strings' are talking pure gut strings (no metal component) or wound gut strings (metal wrapped gut)?

I have recently taken my chinrest off and find it surprisingly comfortable to play without. Do you guys play with or without chinrest?

My instrument is a 1930s Czech 4/4 which looks the part, just need to replace the strings (and ditch the fine tuners). The lable is course something else to consider.

Speaking of period images also check out this site, especially the image marked 'Travelling Fiddlers' -- superb!

http://www.1001tunes.com/fiddlers/photoarchive.html

Many Thanks,
K.C. MacDonald
Lazy Jacks Mess

[Maine Volunteer]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

Thank you gentlemen!

Two questions to follow on from these:
1) is there a good source for an 1860s-style chinrest?
2) just to confirm: when we are talking 'gut strings' are talking pure gut strings (no metal component) or wound gut strings (metal wrapped gut)?

I have recently taken my chinrest off and find it surprisingly comfortable to play without. Do you guys play with or without chinrest?

My instrument is a 1930s Czech 4/4 which looks the part, just need to replace the strings (and ditch the fine tuners). The lable is course something else to consider.

Speaking of period images also check out this site, especially the image marked 'Travelling Fiddlers' -- superb!

http://www.1001tunes.com/fiddlers/photoarchive.html

Many Thanks,
K.C. MacDonald
Lazy Jacks Mess

Try "Pirastro" brand "Chorda" model strings, probably the best pure gut string available. If memory serves, A fellow named Dave Van Zandt out of Seattle used to make period reproduction violins, but this may be price prohibitive; maybe you can check with a local violin repair/ craftsman for the chinrest. Really, they came in a variety of shapes and sizes, and many appeared the same as modern ones.

I've never tried without the CR; started and for many years played W/O without a shoulder rest attachment (definitely not period) and ended up with lots of neck/shoulder strain.

The C/R-less violins were in use for 200 years, give or take, the early violins were played at chest level, only moving to the pectoral, and finally shoulder (chin up) until the advent of the CR (again in response to the complexity of compositions). I imagine if you've been classically trained, it would be a bit of adjustment getting used to the new fingering position and playing position.

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

Eallo!

However, the chinrest was introduced in 1833 and was in wide use by the mid 1800's. The increasing complexity of compositions and need to rapidly access the upper fingering positions en vogue at the time made this a requisite.

Mr. Lam, in my research on antique violins, I have found that very few violins in fact utilize a chinrest. Could you please share your research that led you to the conclusion that they were in wide use? Granted, I might be missing something, but all that I've found has led me to believe the opposite.

Did the chinrest really come about due to the complexity of the new music? When listening to violin music of the baroque (1600-1750) and classical (1750-1825) periods, one can easily conclude that those pieces were by no means simple and/or lacking in the high register. I have yet to find evidence that Nicolo Paganini used a chinrest, and if anybody was fluent in switching to the high registers in a hurry, he was. Those pieces are off the wall! :) I'm wondering if the chinrest didn't just come about naturally as a means to make the instrument more comfortable, as technology and progress do the same with all things humans create.

K.C., there have been great contributions in this thread, but I think we forgot to mention anything about varnish. Now that we know your instrument is circa 1930 though, (and with an unaltered finish I presume) you may not have to worry about it. Check out this thread and gather what information you can from it:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1696&highlight=violins

Personally, I just took my chinrest off for good a couple months ago, and I'm not having much of a problem, except, as Ms. Caudell mentioned in the earlier discussion on violins, clothes make the violin slip out of place. I've just gotten used to playing a bit lower than normal... ;)

As far as strings go, check out this thread for some good information:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1920&highlight=violins

Good luck! I am in earnest,

[Maine Volunteer]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

Eallo!



Mr. Lam, in my research on antique violins, I have found that very few violins in fact utilize a chinrest. Could you please share your research that led you to the conclusion that they were in wide use? Granted, I might be missing something, but all that I've found has led me to believe the opposite.

Did the chinrest really come about due to the complexity of the new music? When listening to violin music of the baroque (1600-1750) and classical (1750-1825) periods, one can easily conclude that those pieces were by no means simple and/or lacking in the high register. I have yet to find evidence that Nicolo Paganini used a chinrest, and if anybody was fluent in switching to the high registers in a hurry, he was. Those pieces are off the wall! :) I'm wondering if the chinrest didn't just come about naturally as a means to make the instrument more comfortable, as technology and progress do the same with all things humans create.

K.C., there have been great contributions in this thread, but I think we forgot to mention anything about varnish. Now that we know your instrument is circa 1930 though, (and with an unaltered finish I presume) you may not have to worry about it. Check out this thread and gather what information you can from it:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1696&highlight=violins

Personally, I just took my chinrest off for good a couple months ago, and I'm not having much of a problem, except, as Ms. Caudell mentioned in the earlier discussion on violins, clothes make the violin slip out of place. I've just gotten used to playing a bit lower than normal... ;)

As far as strings go, check out this thread for some good information:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1920&highlight=violins

Good luck! I am in earnest,

Jeffrey,

You are correct, Paginini was the most celebrated violinist of his time, and he most certainly did not use a chinrest. As a matter of fact, his Guarneri violin is noted as having the C/R area varnish worn away ( by the way, the winner of an annual amatuer violinst competition every year in Cremona still gets to play this same violin!)

But, as he died in 1840, and learned from masters prior to the advent of the C/R (his career having peaked about the time of the introduction of the C/R) this is not suprising.

Paganini was also increbibly flexible and very double-jointed!, allowing him extreme control of his hand and finger positioning, having been noted at one concert where he broke all three strings with his frenetic playing style, and finishing the peice on the last remaining string!

My education in music and the violin came (truly a different 'lifetime' away) through my instructor, Ronald 'Herr' Ericksson. My studies (sounds like you were similarly tortured as a youth) included history studies from his extensive book collection. My recollections came from these studies; and if I recall, the primary books were History of the Violin by Foster, Henley's Dictionary of the Violin, and papers by Baradiov; the others I cannot recall. I no longer have access to these books, so maybe a call to your local University Music college could yield these books, and maybe some examples of 19th century violins with period C/Rs!

As I recall, the composers of the time, on the cusp of the Romantic and Impressionist periods led to wilder and more exhibinistic use of stutter bowings,double stop harmonics, left hand pizzicatos, dizzying arpegios popular at the time ( Verdi, Bruckner, Rossini, even Wagner) necessitated the control of the violin (as you point out, to keep it from slipping) to free the finger hand to do its work. By no means did I mean to say that the earlier works of the greats (my favs) Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Vivaldi, etc., were any less complex, but the 'showmanship' that was favored at this time led to these new compositions (truly the led zep of the day...who would have known...) and their accompanying techniques.

Sphor, who introduced the C/R was a composer (not too good) and violinist (i discussed this with a friend and he says that he has found references to the C/R in the 1820's , but i am unable to confirm this) obviously was a proponent of the C/R and Norwegian Ole Bull, a contemporary of Paganini's, used a chinrest. I recall seeing a cabinet photo of Sarasate holding his violin which had a chinrest upon it. Yes, it was also for comforts sake, but the introduction of the CR was for more than comfort, it led to access of new 'capabilities', much like rifling to a barrel, or iron on ships.

Honestly, I haven't tried W/O a C/R, and probably wouldn't tamper with mine, but if i happen to find a fiddle laying around camp without one, I would not be adverse to trying it out :wink_smil Hope this has helped. Only music lovers will have reached this far in the post without falling alseep...

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

Hope this has helped. Only music lovers will have reached this far in the post without falling alseep...

Haha!

I appreciate the elaboration Ron, I was far from falling asleep! Thank you very much for the titles, I'll be sure to look them up when finals are over. They sound very interesting!

I am in earnest,

[Daniel Partner]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

Here is a link to a Union soldier's violin that is in the National Music Museum at the University of South Dakota. ttp://www.usd.edu/smm/CivilWarViolin.html

This museum also has a collection of Civil War drums and brass instruments.

http://www.usd.edu/smm/graese1.html

Also, I get my gut strings from Bob Thornburg:

http://gourdbanjo.com/GBhtml/gut.html

Daniel Partner
American Music 1830-1865

https://www.danpartner.com

[10nycav]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

Ron,

Coincidentally, I heard a Sarasate piece at a concert this past Friday. It literally had "all the bells and whistles" you mention, as well as spicatto. I can't imagine playing it without a chinrest. Then again I'm an ex-cellist so what do I know. A 13 year old prodigy played it (and nailed it, I might add)--the audience went wild.

These discussions are very interesting and it does beg the point: If you are a violinist (or a fiddler) your playing technique should reflect your persona, their education and the part of the country you are from. My guess it that the chinrest players were not only classically educated, they would have been very cutting edge as well. This is just a guess, but I'll bet that a lot of "old school" classical instructors in the US were still not using chinrests while the more "progressive" instructors were.

Ken Morris
10th Regt of Cavalry NYSV.

As I recall, the composers of the time, on the cusp of the Romantic and Impressionist periods led to wilder and more exhibinistic use of stutter bowings,double stop harmonics, left hand pizzicatos, dizzying arpegios popular at the time ( Verdi, Bruckner, Rossini, even Wagner) necessitated the control of the violin (as you point out, to keep it from slipping) to free the finger hand to do its work. By no means did I mean to say that the earlier works of the greats (my favs) Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Vivaldi, etc., were any less complex, but the 'showmanship' that was favored at this time led to these new compositions (truly the led zep of the day...who would have known...) and their accompanying techniques.

Sphor, who introduced the C/R was a composer (not too good) and violinist (i discussed this with a friend and he says that he has found references to the C/R in the 1820's , but i am unable to confirm this) obviously was a proponent of the C/R and Norwegian Ole Bull, a contemporary of Paganini's, used a chinrest. I recall seeing a cabinet photo of Sarasate holding his violin which had a chinrest upon it. Yes, it was also for comforts sake, but the introduction of the CR was for more than comfort, it led to access of new 'capabilities', much like rifling to a barrel, or iron on ships.

[7thNYcav]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

The romantic era depending on who you talk to started in 1825 or some say 1800. The 1860s was in the middle of this era.

[Fiddlebum]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

Try "Pirastro" brand "Chorda" model strings, probably the best pure gut string available.

Dang! I didn't realize these were all-gut. I've been getting mine from Aquila USA in Oregon - they're imported from Italy. They're more expensive BUT the pure gut strings are double length, so you actually get two. (Wound strings are only single length.) I looked up Chorda strings online, but couldn't tell if they're double length or not.

Cheers---

Kim Caudell

[Sweatshop_Tailor]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

Dear Folks,
I have now happily defarbed my fiddle! I used the Pirastro Chorda strings (which are single length), replaced the fine-tuner-laden tailpiece with a hand-carved original from the mid-nineteenth century having a sinew rather than plastic attachment (kindly sold me by a local violin-maker), and even managed to acquire a very simple mid to late nineteenth century German bow at not too ruinous a price. It plays like a dream except that the transition from the mellow & rich copper wound G to the reedy pure gut D still grates on my ears a bit! The chinrest has been off for several weeks and I am very comfortable without it.

Many Thanks to all on this thread!
KC MacDonald
Lazy Jacks Mess

[Fiddlebum]

Re: De-farbing a fiddle?

It plays like a dream except that the transition from the mellow & rich copper wound G to the reedy pure gut D still grates on my ears a bit!

Heheheh.... now you know why they had to invent something better! :p

Actually I like the gut strings. They take a little more finesse than modern strings - if you play too hard you get a nasty screeching sound - but they have a really nice tone to them. And everyone's got a different opinion about them... on my particular instrument, they hold pitch reasonably well, except in cold weather. Warm weather, not much of a problem. And the G likes to go sharp instead of flat. Go figure.

Instruments are like people - they all have different personalities.

Cheers--

Kim Caudell