Civil War Mandolin??

[David Swarens]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

Hello all.

Mandolins were documented in America before the American Revolution, according to one site/cite I turned up, but it was the concert tour of "the Spanish Students" c 1878 (i.e.post Civil War) that really got the fad going.

While this group apparently actually played bandurrias, and not mandolins, many of the "knock off" groups, and they were legion, used the mandolin, and there are Spanish as well as Italian mandolin traditions.

The Spanish Students were reinactors of sorts, dressing in "costumes" of the middle ages, or something inspired by such (the original "farbs"?) and the "Estudiantina" is still a musical genre in Spain (and Mexico).

So the instrument is not limited to only Italian, or only recent immigrant, traditions, but was still very rare in the American scene PRIOR TO 1878.

The earliest American method book for the mandolin that I have run across is:
"Ryan's True Mandoline Instructor" for the "Spanish and Italian Mandoline."
published by John Church Co. of Cincinnati, New York, and Chicago, in 1885

And of course the instrument was the bowl-back or "tater bug" refered to, and not any flat instrument (a 20th century development).
Late 19th century instruments are quite common on the "vintage" market, and this type is (usually) the instrument of choice for classical players.

Also the early style of playing would not be the one familiar to modern "Bluegrass" musicianeers either, but more the manner used in the mandolin orchestras or by classical players.
And the intrument did use wire strings,not gut.

It would be nice if some of the folks interested in playing the mandolin in the first half of the 1860s would keep their eyes open for any period references; I haven't run into any myself, but they might be out there!

David Swarens

[MBBursig]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

Thanks for that last bit of info David. Every little bit helps us Mandolinists. :) I found a little bit more info on the web searching for period mandolins, but all I came up with was a small influx of popularity in the 1850's when the immigration from Southern and Central Europe increased. I think it said something about "parlour music" as well. That was on "secondary source" styled website so I do not have a period reference to prove that. Other then that all the same information everyone else has provided has shown up.
So it seems the mandolin was around, but not to the popular effect that the banjo or fiddle was. Fair enough. :)
Cheers,

[John Keller]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

Mr. Colagiovanni,

The little bit of research I've been able to do on Civil War and the mandolin indicates that the mandolin first came to the United States in the 1850s, brought by Italian and Eastern European immigrants. I do understand that the instrument was a somewhat rare curiosity during the Civil War period, but it definitely did exist here. Having said that, I believe the only mandolins of the period were the bowl-back "tater bug" mandolins. I believe that American Orville Gibson is credited with inventing the first flat-backed mandolins around 1900, so certainly any flat-back A or F model mandolin would not be accurate for Civil War portrayal. For more information on mandolin history see http://www.vintagemandolin.com/mandohistory.html

Please do be careful with bluegrass music, as I do not believe it mixes with the Civil War. I believe that Bill Monroe is credited as the "father of bluegrass," which he first performed in the 1920s. Bluegrass, as I understand it, is a combination of oldtime music, jazz, and blues, but I digress. Oldtime music I believe is accurate for the Civil War, but in a limited way, so I advise that we be careful with it, and I just don't have a solid feeling for how widespread it actually was at the time.

As recorded music was not around yet in the Civil War, I just don't know if oldtime (also called "mountain," or "country" music) had become "popular" music during the Civil War. My opinion is this kind of music was popular then, but highly regionalized in and around Appalachia; it certainly was not so popular as minstrel music, for example. I could be wrong about this; it's just a guess. Any other information out there?

Still, we all know that the Civil War was a great cultural melting pot. I can't imagine that mountain music was not a part of some Civil War camps, particularly those recruited in and around Appalachia. I'm sure there were times when minstrel musicians played alongside oldtime musicians, and I believe that the Civil War may have been one of the first opportunities for oldtime music to be played and heard on a large scale.

So, having said all of this, I believe that oldtime music and mandolin are fair game for Civil War reenacting -- but within limits. If we remember the context of the music, then I think we can go forward. What are the chances that an Italian or Eastern European immigrant with a bowl-backed mandolin played together with mountain music fiddlers and banjo players? Rare, in all liklihood, but it must have happened somewhere.

If and when these guys had a chance to play together, they must have had fun. I can't image the delight (well, then again, I certain can imagine) that a fiddler would have had when he first heard the mandolin, and realized it was strung and tuned exactly like his own instrument. I'm a fiddler who dabbles in mandolin, so I've had that experience. Don't you think some American-born fiddlers who first heard mandolin arranged purchases or trades to acquire the instrument? I know I would have, and undoubtedly it did happen on a very limited basis in the Civil War. That's how music evolves, after all, and the Civil War was an amazing opportunity for blending music.

John Keller
Milford, N.H.

[61NC]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

Friends,
The "Hutchinson Family Singers" occasionally used a mandolin in their act in the 1850's and todays "Amoskeag Players" occasionally use one as well according to their website. Mr. Jerry Ernst has a interesting article about period instuments, I believe you can find that on a link from the 140th NY webpage. I've read that there were mandolin orchestras in New York and Boston in the 1850's, but I can't remember where I saw that now. Though they were not pec until after the war they were here. I hope someone can find some documentation of a soldiers use during the war as I like to play an old bowl back around the fire.

respectfully,
curt cole

[fidlr1]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

[QUOTE=John Keller]Mr. Colagiovanni,


Please do be careful with bluegrass music, as I do not believe it mixes with the Civil War. I believe that Bill Monroe is credited as the "father of bluegrass," which he first performed in the 1920s. Bluegrass, as I understand it, is a combination of oldtime music, jazz, and blues, but I digress. Oldtime music I believe is accurate for the Civil War, but in a limited way, so I advise that we be careful with it, and I just don't have a solid feeling for how widespread it actually was at the time. ""

"Bluegrass music" in the format we know now was not performed until the 1940's, so it mixes about as well with the civil war as big-band swing...
Many "old-time" tunes still heard today have been found in printed collections from before the CW--"Soldier's Joy" for instance, but many "old tunes" may be from the 1880's or later. So many of these passed along from
musician to musician without being published in sheet music, makes it hard to pin down the provenance.

[kenneth smith]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

I'm the ignorant Aussie who started this argument. my understanding was that mandolins were popular in the north in the 1850s. As far as what form they took, the first American manufactured mandos were called American bow-backs (I have one at home made in Phillie; it isn't dated but it's very old) I'm not a re-enactor I'm learning to play the mando and am keen to learn songs from all over the world. I have e-mailed the 52nd regiment string band for clarification (they have a mando in their line-up)

[Jboring]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

Well...on googles "mandoline in the civil war" and where do I arrive....back where I was thinking of looking in the first place.

There appears to be a fixation on the Italian mandolin. It was mentioned here before but the Irish had an instrument also directly descended from the 14th century cittern known as the Bouzouki. It has a much longer scale...generally about 24-26" but alas, it was a mid 20th century adaptation.

I'm a mandolin fan (obviously), and it would not be terribly difficult to locate a period correct style "bowl back" mandolin. Who knows...you might enjoy the resonance of a deeper internal chamber.

http://vintage-instruments.com/navigate/catidx7.htm

[eric marten]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

Be wary of any advice you may get from some of the "regimental string bands" Many of them are simply 20th century style old-timey and bluegrass bands, dressing up in 19th century attire, but using instruments they have completely altered the sound of, with modern steel, synthetic strings and accessories to sound more pleasing to modern audiences.

[joewhitney]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

Jeremiah, the Irish didn't actually have the bouzouki until the last 30 years or so, when they borrowed it from the Greeks (maybe Anthony Quinn as Zorba had something to do with it). They now call it the "Celtic Bouzouki" or "Octave Mandolin".

Theoretically you could take any folk instrument from anywhere immigrants came from, Italy, Ireland, Germany, China, Slovakia, Norway, etc. and say "They existed there, therefore they are correct to play here", but unless you see them in the many ads and tutors offered by Elias Howe, the Klemm Brothers and the other American musical instrument dealers of the period, you'll be as authentic as someone in jaguar skin trousers. But I can tell you you won't see any ads for mandolins, or hammered dulcimers, or dobros, or bouzoukis, or bodhrans, or autoharps, or resonator backed/steel string banjos (I have doubts about tin whistles and harmonicas too, sad to say).

Unfortunately, mandolins do seem to be very prevalent in many so-called Civil War bands, such as the Irish Volunteers, the 52nd Regimental String Band, the 97th Regimental String Band, and the Shenandoah Travelers, who will be playing the dance at the Blue-Grey Gettysburg, and Gettysburg Barn Dance (at least they were playing mandolins at the last Cedar Creek).

In my opinion, this is a large step backward for the hobby. Unless these groups straighten up their impressions, both instrument-wise and uniform-wise, and have to conform to basic rules of authenticity like us reenactors have to, these won't really be Civil War dances, but basically old-timey or bluegrass dances. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to matter much anymore to those who attend, or at least to event organizers.

Disclaimer: As some of you know, I'm a member of the 2nd South Carolina String Band (and I'm speaking for myself, not the band). If any of the above-mentioned bands have made a trip to Tim Sheads or George Wunderlich and improved the authenticity of either their uniforms or instruments, I heartily welcome them into the ranks of authentic Civil War bands! After all, even the 2nd SC started out 25 years ago as a bluegrass band playing Civil War music, and learned over the years what's Civil War and what ain't (and still learnin’).

Joe Whitney

[eric marten]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

I still think that the "Regimental String Band" fiddlers should remove their modern chin rests, fine tuners and synthetic nylon/perlon strings from their instruments. Uncovered, pure gut strings are not difficult to procure (there are over a half dozen manufacturers of them, catering to early orchestras and fiddlers seeking to re-create the sounds of the nineteenth century). They are no more difficult to tune and play than modern synthetic and steel strings, and their sound is a far cry from the "improved" 20th century sound of the violin/fiddle. Steel strings, and the fine tuners that became necessary to tune them, were developed about 1920, and synthetic strings (nylon/perlon) were developed about 1970, catering to the changing tastes of the listening public and the convenience of the performers. The DuPont Company first developed these poly-amide plastics in the 1930's, and the first nylon strings were manufactured in 1948 for the guitar, and 1970 for the violin (Thomastik Dominant Violin Strings). They are fine for 20th century music makers and sound beautiful to modern audiences but there is no reason for re-enactors and Civil War string bands to radically alter the sounds of their violins by adding them to such perfect instruments in order to please modern audiences when the original materials are so readily available. Gut strings give the instrument their original warm sound, a far cry from the metallic sound of metal-wrapped nylon (perlon) violin strings. If gut strings were good enough for 19th century musicians then they should be good enough for those claiming to re-create authentic 19th century music.

Eric Marten
Music Historian
Old Bethpage Village Restoration

[joewhitney]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

Those are certainly valid arguments. I learned fiddle without a chin rest, and now it annoys me to try to play with it. But I suspect my chin may dampen the sound somewhat, and eventually it does wear away the finish on the violin. I don't personally know, but a beard might do even more damage faster.

I also have never used or needed fine tuners on the fiddle. Since most of the notes on this fretless instrument are an approximation from the fiddler's guessing where to place his fingers anyway, and we're talking period music not classical, you can tune close enough without them if your pegs are fitted and lubricated correctly.

As for the strings, it depends on the setting. If you are indoors, where the atmosphere is controlled and the sound reflected, there is no reason to use steel strings. But if you are performing unamplified and/or in an open and/or damp and/or loud setting, the audience may not even hear you, which defeats the purpose of playing the thing in the first place.

Drummers run into the same problem. Original heads were skin, calf, sheep, etc., and in wet or even damp weather, the tension disappears, and it can become like beating a pillow! There are synthetic waterproof heads, but they sound and look different. If you're being paid to perform, and the weather prevents you from playing, you could be in breach of contract unless you warn them you can't play when it's wet.

Then you have to either have two instruments available, one for most playing, and one when the setting is against you. Either that or you have to switch the strings/heads/reeds/whatever, and/or add amplification, if that's the only way to get the sound to the listeners' ears.

Pure authenticity is hard or impossible to achieve, and it's usually a question of how much we want to, or are forced to, compromise. Gut vs. steel is one compromise which some may find acceptable, depending on the circumstances, but I think everyone on this list agrees playing an instrument that would probably never have been seen or played is by far too great a compromise for anyone to make who calls themselves a "Civil War musician".

Joe Whitney

[Hank Trent]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

As for the strings, it depends on the setting. If you are indoors, where the atmosphere is controlled and the sound reflected, there is no reason to use steel strings. But if you are performing unamplified and/or in an open and/or damp and/or loud setting, the audience may not even hear you, which defeats the purpose of playing the thing in the first place.

Drummers run into the same problem. Original heads were skin, calf, sheep, etc., and in wet or even damp weather, the tension disappears, and it can become like beating a pillow! There are synthetic waterproof heads, but they sound and look different. If you're being paid to perform, and the weather prevents you from playing, you could be in breach of contract unless you warn them you can't play when it's wet.

As a listener only, with absolutely no musical talent, I don't understand that philosophy. I guess some people are coming to hear a modern performance of old-fashioned music, no matter what it takes, even if modern materials, microphones, electric lights, etc. need to be used.

But for those who are wanting to experience what it would be like to hear music in the 19th century, as part of a whole living history experience, then a drum that sounds crisp in the rain or a loud violin takes one farther from that goal. It implies that the listeners either don't really care about the whole context of 19th century music or are too stupid to know the difference. That may be true and those who want to get paid by and/or play for that audience will have to adapt accordingly. But not everyone is that audience.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Jboring]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

Jeremiah, the Irish didn't actually have the bouzouki until the last 30 years or so, when they borrowed it from the Greeks (maybe Anthony Quinn as Zorba had something to do with it). They now call it the "Celtic Bouzouki" or "Octave Mandolin".

Joe Whitney

With respect...I said as much. The Irish Bouzouki however has an average of about 4 inches more scale length than the Octave Mandolin. Mute point though as we all agree they are not period.

[joewhitney]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

Hank, in the realm of authentic campaigning, (the subject of this site), I agree completely. It's just that in the real world, the higher your standards, the fewer the numbers. Most fiddlers, banjoists and guitarists don't like messing with gut strings, or taking off the chin rest or tuners, so it's possible you may just end up with few or even no musicians at some events, instead of mostly authentic but very talented musicians (I'm glad I play a Firth, Hall & Pond flute, just like Stephen Foster did, and don't have to worry about strings, accessories, etc)

Given how prevalent music was among the soldiers (one of the few diversions in that pre-electric age), having no, or almost no, musicians doesn't sound that authentic to me either. This is especially true for field musicians. Most fifers I see are playing post-war Cloos-Crosbys, or "Model F"s, or colonial Coopermans, and snare drums are not Civil War period, or have plastic heads. And almost all snares and some bass drums have that cloth muffler under their heads (a fad started in the 1930's which btw kills the tone of the drum). Get rid of them all, and you may end up with no one to play the Reveille in camp, or beat the march on campaign.

So you can be so selective you end up with no music, and as Robert E. Lee said, "Without music, you cannot have an army".

Joe Whitney

P.s. Jeremiah, should have known you knew the difference between a Greek bouzouki and an Irish one!

[Jboring]

Re: Civil War Mandolin??

P.s. Jeremiah, should have known you knew the difference between a Greek bouzouki and an Irish one!

No worries. One should assume nothing in the pursuit of an academic truth. I would like to second your notion about the nature of musicians and their willingness to adapt fully, just for the sake of authenticity. As with any impression, has the person made the attempt to improve their impression as best as they can? Will their presence greatly increase the encampment experience (as opposed to no or very little music)? I think in some areas there is more room for compromise than others, as long as the drive to improve never ceases. After all...is it the destination...or the journey? :)