Period guitar reproduction good to go?

[Danny]

Opinions please:

See the attached photo of a guitar patterned after an 1846 standard size guitar (what we call today "parlor" guitar because we can't believe how small a standard size was back then). This reproduction is made by Fullerton, their "Blackwood" model. It's not museum authentic, but it's a 90% dead ringer for a period guitar. It has modern bracing on the inside that you can't see. It comes with metal strings, which were very rare at that time because the guitars were designed for gut strings, with only the heavies of silk wound with metal (in other words an actual period guitar could not be left at full tension with steel strings). You could try stringing it with real or Nylgut strings.

For under $300 modern US dollars - is this close enough for gov't work? There are reproduction banjos but damn few authentic guitar reproductions below $1200 or so.

Dan Wykes

[Utley]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Dan,

I just saw one of those guitars a few weeks ago at the Midwest Open Air Museum Coordinating Council's conference. The presenter in the historic music section had purchased one off ebay and said it was very reasonably priced at around $300. Their take on it was that it was a very good repro, and needed a few things changed, such as the strings changed, etc. For more detailed info, you can probably contact Rick Musselman (Sparksbird) because he's part of the "theatre company" that was doing the music presentation.

[Dan Munson]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Hello -- I'm a guitar player myself and have previously refitted and refinished a small classical guitar to accord with period look and construction (well, as much I could without totally rebuilding the d****d thing). Even built a "coffin" case to keep it protected. The thumbnail LOOKS pretty good, and would be a real good buy if the maker is a quality maker (I am not familiar with the line). I have a very nice Spanish-made classical that sold in that same price range, so you could be onto a decent instrument.

I am going to assume you've already had the treat of playing outdoors with nylon strings (hopefully NOT at any reenactment). Gut strings have similar tonal qualities (my experience) and are somewhat less temperature-sensitive than nylon (again, my experience), but are more sensitive to moisture in the atmosphere (m.e.). As long as you are not trying to play in a damp environment and can keep the guitar "dry" when not in use, you should be alright. Gut treble strings and metal-wrapped silk bass strings (as can be found in a modern "silk and steel" string set) are period. From what I've read, the bass strings were often wrapped in silver wire. You'll probably have a hard time finding those and will have to settle for silver-plated.

It's hard to tell from the thumbnail, but I assume this guitar is not finished with a modern high-gloss varnish -- that would require re-finishing the guitar, as I have not seen (in person or in photo) any CW period guitar with such a finish. And I would guess that the bridge and the nut on the guitar in question are white plastic. Properly, these should be changed out for bone equivalents (they are out there).

It is correct that putting steel strings on a CW period guitar (or even a modern "classical") will gradually warp them because of the higher tension -- they simply are not built for that. But if your guitar-to-be is already built to accomodate steel strings, sweet!

Good luck with your guitar, if you go forward with purchasing it!

Dan Munson
Co. K, 100th Penn. V.I.

[Dan Munson]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Clarifying something I said in my previous post:

I hope I wasn't understood as suggesting you could use steel strings on this guitar in a CW environment, just because it is built to tolerate them. That would be, if not out-and-out wrong, at least very close to it. A source I have at home (I am writing this from my work desk) indicates -- as I recall -- that steel strings on American-made guitars and banjos would be quite out of line anywhere before the end of the 19th century. In fact, Martin was apparently still marketing its guitars with gut strings into the 20th century. My recollection is that steel string sets at the time of the CW were generally limited to smaller instruments, such as violins and mandolins...and were not the normal string set even for these instruments. However, I don't profess to be a complete expert on this point. I'd be happy to go fishin' for the reference book in question, if you're interested.

Dan Munson

[Drygoods]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Are the 'gut' guitar strings found at modern music stores, or is this a specialty thing you have to search for?

[Dan Munson]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

From my experience, gut guitar string sets are generally not to be found in your average music store. You can find gut strings in shops that cater to other stringed instruments (violin, cello), but the guages of the strings are different from what you'll need and, besides, they won't have your bass strings. There are a couple of on-line sources for good gut strings sets:

1. Damian Dlugolecki, a maker of strings:

https://www.damianstrings.com/guitar.htm

A full set of strings (3 gut trebles, 3 silver plated, wire-wrapped silk basses) is priced at $42.50. (Did I mention these aren't cheap?) With varnished gut strings, the set goes for $45.00. Varnished strings are worth the extra couple of bucks. Gut strings will eventually start to fray a little bit. You can repair the frays with some clear nail polish. The varnish coat helps put off the fraying.

2. Aquila USA, American branch of a VERY old Italian maker of fine strings:

https://www.aquilausa.com

A set of true gut strings for guitar, similar to what Dlugolecki offers, is priced at $33.55, but they are by special order only. Aquila also offers strings in Nylgut, a synthetic that mimics gut in tone and appearance.

One thing you will notice on the Aquila site is a warning that the gut and Nylgut strings are not to tuned any higher than a = 430 hz. String tuning "back then" tended to be slightly "flat" from what is standard today. You CAN tune your gut strings to modern tuners, but this stresses them and means they will probably start fraying sooner. Or, you can tune "period"...and then puzzle other players as to why you sound "flat" all the time.

Dan Munson

[David Swarens]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

I have not had the opportunity to see these "Blackwood" guitars, except on web photos, and agree that they are interesting from an interpreters perspective.
They do capture the general look, and I have seen them offered at less than $200 (not "up" at present) by one seller.

They do vary in several significant areas which are worth noting.

As mentioned, you do not "see" the interior bracing, and it is probably in some form appropriate to the 19th century anyway, but if engineered for steel strings, you would certainly hear the difference, as the heavy and stiff top will probably sound pretty dead (quiet and dull) using period style gut, or synthetic (nylon, nylgut, etc.)gut strings.

Secondly, the bridge saddle is at the slant needed to "compensate" for the great difference in thickness found in steel strings; early guitars, and modern "classical" guitars use a straight saddle, and will not be in tune with the slanted saddle.

The braces could be scraped thinner, and the saddle slot could be filled and re cut, to make the guitar work better with "gut" stringing.

So not quite "good to go," although maybe not that far a trip.

Aesthetically, the bridge shape is pretty modern, fingerboard inlays are quite rare on early guitars, and the tuners have a definite 1930s and later (Grover sta-tite style) look, but overall this is much closer, and at a very low cost for a relatively period appearance instrument.

That said, it is much closer than anything I have run into aside from work from custom builders.

If more people end up with these guitars, it would be interesting to hear how the work!

As for strings, here are a couple of sources that I have found to be "user friendly."

Bernunzio Vintage Instruments http://bernunzio.com/paper_list.php?type=Strings-QR

sell La Bella gut guitar strings, while Elderly Instruments handles Nylgut (including that line's real gut and silk) as well as the La Bella set.

http://elderly.com/search/elderly?terms=gut%20guitar%20strings&step=20&query_start=2&page=1&cname=Search

La Bella makes sets for "Early Romantic Guitar" but few suppliers seem to stock these, but they might be worth looking around for (they are not natural gut, but synthetic strings, designed/gauged for early to mid 19th century guitars).

Yours,
David Swarens

[Danny]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

The product description for these Blackwood guitars says they are x-braced, so not period ladder-braced or angle braced, but as we know the bracing doesn't show. The description implies that the finish is the typical sprayed finish for modern guitars - a plastic finish that doesn't need much maintenance but neither can it be buffed out like a period laquer.

So in conclusion I guess that the upside of both the above facts means these can handle (period-unlikely) steel strings and the finish is somewhat weather (camp) resistant. But downside is that gut, false gut (Nylgut) or nylon will not sound brightly, and the bracing and finish can't be converted to period.

But Metal wound silk strings can be used for the heavies as they were available and in common use antebellum, then perhaps gut or something that at least looks like gut for all the lighter strings. That and a check that the nut and saddle are of bone - as they may be already. Maybe a simpler set of tuning machines if we can find any.

Dan Wykes

[aetius123]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

The dimensions of the guitar look great. I have a handmade classical guitar that I bring on reenactments. My guitar is made from local woods from the area instead of imported woods. The wood on my guitar may look really authentic, but unfortunately, the shape is closer to a Jose Ramirez classical (not period). My guitar was made by Richard Diaz De Leon in San Antonio. How is the sound on the parlor guitar? I'm always looking for ways to improve my impression.

John Winkler
Co K 6th TX

[David Swarens]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Hello again.

More on the discussion of the Fullerton Blackwood guitar, for interpreters use.

X bracing is an appropriate structural design for the mid 19th century, being used by Martin, and by other makers, by the late 1840s.
It is the thickness of the bracing that I felt would be a concern.

And as for strings, the "wire wound on silk" strings were the expected by at least the mid century, and are described in early method books.
"Howe's Instructor for the Guitar"(1846) states that "the Spanish Guitar has but six strings, three silver and three catgut."

And early banjo methods direct using a (wound) guitar string for the base (forth) string on that instrument. "Briggs" (1855) specifies a guitar string of "Silk covered with silver wire."

So the use of wound strings for the three base strings on guitar was expected at least a generation before the War.

As for good tuners, the most accessible I have found are the Irving Slone (from Stewart MacDonald) and a couple of models offered by Gotoh.
While neither are really period style (darn it) they are brass or bronze plates and available with either ivoroid (faux ivory) or ebony buttons, and are the least obtrusive from an aesthetic standpoint, with period, or period appearing, materials and traditional design.

Both are relatively expensive (from more than $50 to more than $150-darn it again), but at least they list at less than $500.00, unlike the very nice English tuners that are more than that.
This is a source for great period style tuners, but not as an upgrade for a guitar that was less than $300.00 to start.
Anyone who enjoys period tuners will like this site though, the work is as good as any from any time period, and they do offer a number of tuners with a great mid 19th century look!

http://www.rodgers-tuning-machines.co.uk/index.html

The previous time I had looked at this site, you couldn't even get on a waiting list!

Yours,
David Swarens

[Danny]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

David -

Thanks for the insight and reference. Besides the Blackwood for under $300, here's a reproduction of an appropriately sized and appearing guitar for under $700, though again like the Blackwood mostly with later specs - slanted saddle, steel strings and not exactly vintage hardware - it's a Blueridge BR-341, see photo here.

I don't know if it's more sensitively braced than the Blackwood, but if so perhaps a set of gut / silks would sound ok . That and a set of those tuners you mention might be a viable investment on a $700 guitar. About the cost of a better reproduction musket.

Dan Wykes

[Danny]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Postscript on those tuners - keep or toss the idea.

I built my own period-style banjo* using standard cheap music store open-gear tuners and replacing the Phillips head center bolts with allen socket bolts - much less noticeable. You find those in the specialty screw section of any hardware store worth its salt, but bring the phillips head bolt to match on-site at the store.

Also you sand off all the molding lines on the tuner keys to get a near ivory or gutta-percha appearance.

3-on-a-plate tuner sets, as for these guitars we're considering here, could be handled the same way. There was metal plated stamped metal hardware being made in mid-19th century era.

- Dan Wykes

*disclaimer: I will not recommend anything other than an accurate reproduction from a recognized builder as the best solution if we are serious about campaigning. BUT I believe its ok to get there by affordable stages, and modern parlor guitars and homemade period-style banjos are better than a steel-string dreadnaught guitar and Gibson Scruggs type banjo that I have seen brought to reenactments.

[Dan Munson]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

I agree with Mr. Wykes' "disclaimer" above. Unless you happen to stumble onto a playable period instrument at an affordable price (and good luck doing that -- high four figures is about as cheap as you can hope for), be satisfied with getting a good basic instrument of modern manufacture and then progressively converting it to a more period appearance. Elderly Music (www.elderly.com) has a nice selection of "period" guitar items that can be used to convert a moderm guitar: bone blanks for nuts and saddles, a variety of wooden bridge pins (Martin and some other American makers anchored their strings with bridge pins, rather than tying in the European fashion), even an ebony reproduction of a mid-19th century Martin "pyramid" style bridge. Oh yes, and Aquila silk-and-gut string sets for $28.50. But as pointed out above, tuners with real bone or pearloid buttons will cost ya. Although it hurts to say it, cleaning up those plastic tuner buttons is probably the way to go, at least in the short run.

Dan Munson
Co. K, 100th Penn'a V. I.

[David Swarens]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Thanks for bring these "Blueridge" guitars to our attention.

They do look like lovely instruments, with far fewer aesthetic issues, from a mid 19th century perspective, than any production instrument I have yet seen.

They have "tortoise" binding and (small) dots on the fingerboard, and "of course" are designed for steel strings.

And they have a relatively long scale/string length for an early guitar, and I am not sure how that will affect playability/tone.
It will give more tension, so that might be okay if you transition to a lower tension (gut type) stringing, although it might make the execution of some 19th century techniques more difficult (not as much an issue if using the instrument to accompany songs).

The bridge shape and size looks very nice, except for the slant saddle for wire strings, and the tuners are three on a plate,with simple buttons, although I couldn't find an image of the plate design (the buttons look "period appropriate."

They also offer a (East Indian) rosewood model, with rosewood binding and ivoroid tuner buttons, (and "herringbone" marquetry trim) for a little more money.

No conclusions, on my part, but I will look forward to seeing one of these at some point.

Too bad SAGA doesn't commission an instrument for the "historic interpreter" market, maybe a short subscription run even, made in Asia, using their resourses to create an accesable mid 19th century guitar.
There would be a line to get them- well okay, it might be a pretty short line. But who knows?

Yours,
David Swarens

[David Swarens]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

In response to Mr Munson's (just) earlier post, it is much more common for 19th century guitars to have pin bridges (rather than tie).

In addition to Martin and other American makers, this shows up commonly in French, English, and "German" instruments, but does seems quite uncommon in Spanish made guitars, and it is the Spanish tradition which has largely defined the modern classical (i.e. gut strung) guitar.

Guitars from all of these parts of the world were imported to America in the 19th century.

LaCote (Paris) and Panormo (London) instruments of the period are pictured in many guitar histories, and both makers used pin bridges.

The modern association of pin bridges with steel srings has lead to the use of these stringings destructively on many period guitars, which cannot, and should not be asked to, handle the higher tension!

Yours,
David Swarens