Period guitar reproduction good to go?

[Amtmann]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

http://www.kresse-gitarren.de/repro.html :D

[Dan Munson]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Mr. Swarens, thanks for the input about bridge pins. I knew that Spanish-made guitars of the time used tied rather than pinned strings. A book I have on early American stringed instruments rather made it sound like bridge pins, if not an American concept, were much more widely employed on this side of the "Pond" in the mid-19th century. But maybe I misunderstood (or am misrecollecting) the text. Anyway, thanks for that info.

Mr. Bailey, thanks for that link. Those are some to-die-for repros (especially the Stauffer), but at 3,000 Euros and up, I think I will simply have to admire them from afar. Someday I hope to pick up, via the aftermarket, one of Martin's repops of Christian Martin's 1833 ('34?) "Stauffer" model that circulated in limited edition some years ago. (Won't happen, but I can dream...)

Dan Munson

[David Swarens]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Hello again.

I would like to take back one comment I had made earlier, in post #14, about the scale length of the "blueridge" (Saga) guitars.

While many period guitars do have a shorter string lenth, the 25" is not much longer than the Martin standard, for size 1 and size 0, guitars, of 24.9".

"Size 1" was the "standard" while "size 0" was described as "concert" size, for Martin.

The Blueridge model in the above discussion seems to be essentially a size 0, a size first introduced in Martin's line apparently in the early 1850s ("Martin Guitars"-Washburn & Johnson).

I also have a mid 19th century French guitar with that scale length.

And quite a number of early (1830s through 1860s) Spanish guitars catalogued in "La Guitarra Espanola" have that long or longer scales (while some have shorter).

Also LaCote and Panormo instruments catlogue with similar scale lengths.

So a 25" scale length is actually right in the ball park for period practice.

I am looking forward to seeing both of these instruments, the Blueridge and the Blackwood.
The Blueridge, in particular, looks like a fine instrument, and quite close to period, especially the rosewood model (with rosewood bindings), except for steel string construction, including the "compensating" slanted bridge saddle.

And the Fullerton Blackwood is certainly cost competitive(!), with the reservations mentioned in earlier posts.
Might be fun to "work with."

And each looks much more 19th century than what has been available in production instruments (since the 19th century).

Yours,
David Swarens

[Danny]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Thanks for bring these "Blueridge" guitars to our attention. They do look like lovely instruments, with far fewer aesthetic issues, from a mid 19th century perspective, than any production instrument I have yet seen....

Too bad SAGA doesn't commission an instrument for the "historic interpreter" market, maybe a short subscription run even, made in Asia, using their resourses to create an accesable mid 19th century guitar. There would be a line to get them- well okay, it might be a pretty short line. But who knows?

Yours,
David Swarens

David -

A similar new "period style" guitar for $250 (with with a hard canvas-c0vered case) offered at eBay this week, item 160186548110. Easily passes the 10 foot test at least, and a solid-top instrument. I'll let everyone know if this was a foolish buy for me after it arrives -- they have three more left as I write this.

A museum reproduction it is not, but perhaps I can disguise the rod cover, the tuning machines with brass, and string with gut/silk. At minimum it should be great for a 'streamer' (a term which I've been told is not a dis after all) event.

- Dan Wykes

[50th VA Corporal]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Being a semi-professional guitarist I looked into how my role as a musician could dovetail into my civil war re-enacting. Particiating in the mainstream events (sorry - but certainly, at least, progressive on my part) I witness(ed) many, actually all, guitarist using non-period guitars. In my view it is just as farby as men wearing earrings to an event.

The look-a-like guitars can come close in design but all have drawbacks such as metal strings, tuning gears, and most importantly the use of polyurathane shiny finishes.

Many guitars from the early era just have not survived due to the construction of the necks not having re-enforcing trussrods and poor top bracing. Should one find such a guitar it would most likely to have survived because it was not used and would be priced far above what some of us common folk could afford.

I comprimised somewhat. I lucked out on a 1930 Regal parlor guitar in mostly original condition. A nice slotted headstock that uses nylon strings and, has the original ebony bridge and end pins. After the seventy odd years of use it could use a new set of tuning keys by there are really no suitible drop-in replacements for it as it came stock with Waverlys and the only used sets I have lucked out on (that match) were a used set at $200+ or a set of NOS (new old stock) at $450.

So, I tune just as often as needed. And, right, it does sound and play better tuned down about a half a step.

Another aspect to consider is that guitars of that era, and 1950-ish back, is the size of the neck. Guitars then had fret boards with little or no radius plus they were as wide and thick as a baseball bat. My Regal has a neck so thick on it that even after playing guitars for 45 years it took me months to get use to notwithstanding the string height being quite high (but typical of the era). I do think most guitar players of the day would wimp out trying to play mine due to the high and wide action.

I say my Regal is mostly original. The drawback into using it at events is the original beautiful floral stenciled painting and Regal lyre on the lower bout and the headstock, fretboard and pickgaurd are all mother of pearl. That in itself may be original or a 1940's addition although my favorite luthier believes it to have been done when it was new.

In any event, I do take it to events because it is by far more original in design than what I have witnessed. One of my draw backs is I don't yet play music of the civil war era yet and mostly play parlor type instrumentals ala fingerstyle (nylon strungs were NOT intended to be strummed) and when the camp is clear of no one but me - blues.

I do have a wooden coffin case that I transport it with.

Actually I haunt eBay looking at the vintage parlor guitars and there are frequent opportunities. I agree that Elderly Instruments in Lansing Michigan has opportunities. However, I make my annual treck there as it is just over 100 miles away and I find them to be hit and miss unless you really want something rare and costly.

I would love to post a photo of my parlor guitar but I have no clue how to do so yet. I would say, of the 60+ guitars I have had in my guitar life it is one of only two that has had magic in it from day one and that could be because of wood just sounds better the older it gets and the more it is played.

James T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

[Rev]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

I'm not familar with the maker being discussed, but my guess would be that the guitar's bracing and top material/thickness will sound not sound with nylon/gut strings. When I say 'sound' I mean vibrate properly. If the top is solid, from good wood, and the guitar is not glued up with epoxy, a good luthier might be able to scallop the bracing, change out the bridgeplate, and adjust the saddle to get more than a dull thunk out of out. (I've done it to two guitars. I'm not really a luthier, except on banjers. I just mess around with guitars.) But, then you won't have a 300.00 instrument.

[eric marten]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

For an interesting article on gut violin and guitar strings, check out www.aquilacorde.com or google Paganini gut strings. Apparently, Nicolo Paganini, the most famous violinist and guitarist of the nineteenth century, used the same strings on both his guitar and violin (at least the upper 3 guitar strings). They recently discovered some of his strings among his posessions - guitar length, For violin, he would have cut them down himself (fairly standard in the 19th century). Also see Violin Making As It Was And Is by Ed Heron Allen, 1883 - which has about a dozen pages on string manufacture in England at the time.

[Danny]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Yeah, just got that Republic RP-1 guitar for $200 and Wow. It likely came from the same pattern and (Chinese) shop that the Fullerton Blackwood model guitar does -- except finished and set-up in Texas by Republic guitars. Compared to the Fullerton it's upgraded to rosewood body and faux-shell sound hole and body purfling, and dark faux-shell tuning machine buttons. Gorgeous. The body back stripe may be fancier as well. The finish is not at all shiny or thick - it's looks like a thin unrubbed polish as a period guitar would have, though it must be a modern sprayed laquer finish.

In short, it's a reproduction of an 1846 pattern but braced for and equipped with steel strings. But I believe given the response with the steels that gut or Nylgut(R) will be ok on this guitar without shaving the braces. Overall size, scale are appropriate for 1846 and the neck thickness not far off. The fretboard is properly flat as well (non-radiused). The tuning machines and frets are high quality but alas, not all brass. A plus is that there is no truss rod cover after all. As I said before this guitar easily passes the 10-foot test. The headstock imprint is a decal so would easily remove. There is no strap button either end of the body - I suppose that's ok for a copy of a period guitar.

There were four selling at that price on eBay and it seems he sold all but one. If it comes up again or if he gets more of them in don't even hesitate. This is a quality solid spruce top guitar that is at a mimimum an awesome travel size guitar, and much better than a typical 'streamers guitar for use at living history.

- Dan Wykes

[Danny]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Update: Ok, the Republic RP guitar is a reasonably priced solid-top guitar based on a mid-19th century guitar pattern. I got one last Fall (per my earlier post).

fyi at this writing Republic's own web site has these RP's for about the same price as mine, one model with fancier fretboard inlay costs more, and last years model with the star inlay no longer shown. See them at: http://www.republicguitars.com/parlorguitars.html

It is not a museum reproduction but quality and sound are good, probably better than other small guitars in this price range, and in this case more correct in nearly every dimension for our purposes here. Do not think you will get the big full sound of a dreadnaught -- you will have to learn to appreciate the tenor and quality of sound coming from a smaller box.

One curious thing, which doesn't matter for us I guess, is that the nice Republic logo wipes clean off with guitar polish, so I didn't have a chance to decide to do that!

Going forward I now plan on only replacing two treble side strings with gut or faux-gut (Nylgut) and see how that sounds. That solution may address the issues bought up earlier in the thread, about the heavier bracing not responsive to a set of gut strings. Benefit would be it should look more authentic (the other four strings are wound so would appear similar to period anyway, even if wound on steel rather than silk) and those two strings when noted may sound more authentic in finger-style play.

Gosh this guy talks a lot.

Dan Wykes

[Alan Lloyd]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Fellers

I recently bought a Fullerton Blackwater guitar on Ebay. They come steel strung, so I took it to a instrument repair shop to have it set up for gut strings. The repairman smoothed the string grooves on the nut and worked on the bridge.

It now plays in tune all the way up the neck and has a very pleasing sound

[toccoa42]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

I believe I have purchased the LAST Republic "parlor" guitar available in the U.S. Got it last week, plays beautiful out of the case. I'll be trying Nylgut strings in the future, right now it's strung with GHS silk and bronze.

However, the tuning machines have GOT to go. Very obviously un-period. I've searched the internet and come up with these:

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdpro...assical+Tuners

My choice would be the third picture down, the "GGC2" set. The question is, does anyone know if the specs will work? Maening hole sizes, screw placement, overall dimensions, etc?

Thanks,

[Danny]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

I believe I have purchased the LAST Republic "parlor" guitar available in the U.S. ...However, the tuning machines have GOT to go. Very obviously un-period...My choice would be ...the "GGC2" set. The question is, does anyone know if the specs will work? Maening hole sizes, screw placement, overall dimensions, etc?...Thanks,

Lynn -

Not sure which Republic model you have, but mine has the open-gear set and there are some partial "de-farbs" I can suggest will at least get you closer without having to install the GGC2's you had in mind - I only mention it because even those GGC2's have the obviously "farby" large Phillips-head screws for the gear axels, and they have the larger-diameter ivory-style spools, which might affect your installation.

So in either case, you can at least replace that Phillips head screw with a stock Allen- head screw from the specialty fastener bin at a well-equipped hardware store. Before somebody here goes ape on that idea, I realize Allen-head is not right either, that it should be a slot-head like the close-up pic here, but at least the Allen-head just looks like a little hole, barely noticeable on the black metal of screw top. The question of improper screw type just won't come up like it does with the stock Phillips-head screw. Bring one of those gear screws with you to the store bin and you'll see which Allen-head will replace it.

Also in either case, replace the small bright-metal Phillips-head mounting screws with same size slot-headed brass wood screws, which for some reason are still available in those specialty bins as well.

Third, if you have the gear set with the dark-knarly color buttons, that in itself shouldn't knock them out for leaving on, because I've found in researching it that dark shell material was available for use as tuning buttons. The thing is though, you must sand them down to eliminate the mold line so they look more like shell.

The other thing I researched is that while most guitars had the worm gear on the other side of the round gears as compared to either modern gearset mentioned here, that's not a dead giveway either because it was not the only configuration at the time, just the more common one.

It may have already been mentioned somewhere here that there are actual reproduction gearsets available but they cost way more than your guitar did.

Again, the close-ups here of gearset on an 185os guitar may help.

Dan Wykes

[toccoa42]

It may have already been mentioned somewhere here that there are actual reproduction gearsets available but they cost way more than your guitar did.

Well, yeah, that's kind of the point. Actually, mostly the point. I don't plan on getting the guitar 100% 1860's accurate, nor did I intend therefore to spend $600 including labor to do it when I paid $300 for the guitar itself. That's just nuts. I only want to make the obvious cosmetic improvements that will get the guitar up to the 5-foot rule. I'm aware of the slot head/phillips head dilemna, which I'm willing to live with if slot heads cannot be found, as well as the "gear on top" manifestation, since as you say, both variants existed. The tuning machines now are enclosed in a stainless steel case, which I imagine is a complete assembly. Don't know for sure, I haven't taken it apart. Anyway, what I want to get to, again, is inside the 5-foot rule. New tuning machines would do that (and getting rid of the brass strap peg, which my guitar repair guru can plug and fill in to disgiise it well enough).

I have an email in to Frank at Republic Guitars to see if he can shed any light on the matter.

[Deuceswilde]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Why not drill and taper the "strap button" for a real end pin, any guitar guy can do it in no time. Your guitar would have had the end pin. As for the strings, at least go and get nylon strings today. The faster you get rid of steel, the faster you will break the bad habit.

[toccoa42]

Re: Period guitar reproduction good to go?

Your guitar would have had the end pin.

Never heard of it.