Camp made guitar

[ohpkirk]

All,
In preparation for winter quarter's living history's and static camp scenarios, I have almost completed a camp made guitar. The body is out of box from home (I couldn't find any cigar boxes to my liking) and the neck is an oak plank. However I am having trouble with the sound hole. Since the neck of the guitar runs through the box and is also the tailpiece (similar to period banjo's) what type of sound hole should be used? I know of period guitars with the standard O hole, but since the neck runs through the body, this inhibits the cut from being made. Do you know of any examples where the S holes (that were present on other period stringed instruments) are found on period guitars? Currently I have not placed the top of the box on to finish the project until I get some help on this subject.

Thanks in advance,

[Joe Walker]

Re: Camp made guitar

Cody- I'd be the last to say I am an expert on the subject, but the old banjos had a wooden dowel running from the where the neck is attached, accross the bottom of the banjo, and out the pot to form the tailpiece. Old cigar box banjos, guitars, and fiddles had something similiar, if anything- allowing a sound hole in the middle or the "sound holes" on the top. I don't think the modern "S hole" guitars associated with arched top guitars were seen until about 1900 in orchestras. I would put a 1" dowell in the middle like the banjo. You might put a "diamond" shape on each side of the top, on either side of the strings.

Joe Walker

(PS- I will be at Ft Chadbourne this weekend doing old time music program)

[ohpkirk]

Re: Camp made guitar

Joe,
I will be there also. I was hoping to get this finished so that I could take it with me, but it doesn't look like the gut strings will be here in time. I appreciate your recommendations, I may put those diamond holes as you suggested. The other pieces of hardware I am using on this guitar are wooden fiddle/banjo style tuining pegs, a bone nut I carved from a shed antler, the bridge is an old square headed bolt with the square nut on it, and the tail piece is off of an 1880's vintage tin can that I found in my grandparents basement next tot he coal room. The can still has its label on it (which I cut off and gave to my mother for her collection) and the lid was opened halfway...I will remove the other half and fold it in the middle and use it somewhat like the original banjo in the attatched photo. I was trying to use items that the soldiers would have had access to while in camp...i.e. trash or discarded items.

[Rob Weaver]

Re: Camp made guitar

Violins have always had "f" shaped holes. Since you are making a home made instrument, as opposed to a professionally crafted one, I'd give you a little leeway in what you shape the tone holes like. Although hearts, diamonds and crosses were common on dulcimers, the dulcimer was a dying and obscure instrument in the 1860s (I hate to say that even tho I play it!) The fiddle was a common accompaniment instrument and I've run across lots of references to men playing them in winter quarters. If you use fiddle-inspired "F" holes, you will give the impression of basing your tone holes on a pattern readily available to you on site.

[ohpkirk]

Re: Camp made guitar

Rob,
Thank you for your help. The point you made of "If you use fiddle-inspired "F" holes, you will give the impression of basing your tone holes on a pattern readily available to you on site." was what I was thinking when I asked about the fiddle/violin/cello/viola/etc. shaped sound holes. I may lean toward something simpler in shape since I will be carving them with a pocket knife vs. a jigsaw/keyhole saw. Any other recommendations per the shape of the sound hole?

[Rob Weaver]

Re: Camp made guitar

Yeah - they'd be hard to carve with a pocketknife unless you're really good or have a lot of time on your hands! Edwin Forbes did a sketch of a soldier holding a cigarbox fiddle in his hand, seated before a winter hut. It has "f" holes." If you're less sure of your skills, I'd go with hearts. You see hearts in profusion in American folkart, and you just can't go wrong with them. My dad, who was in no sens of the word competent with tools, made a dulcimer once and he put hearts in as tone holes. They even looked like hearts, which for him was genuinely saying something!

[Danny]

Re: Camp made guitar

All,
In preparation for winter quarter's living history's and static camp scenarios, I have almost completed a camp made guitar. The body is out of box from home (I couldn't find any cigar boxes to my liking) and the neck is an oak plank.

Cody -

Far from an expert here either. But having made and used a period-style banjo for such events I know that, in the AC environment at least, some will say that you're stretching it to suppose that homemade guitars were as likely as factory guitars.

But don't get me wrong, I'm with you on this because must have happened.

On one point though: Does your guitar have frets? If so, how did you make them? From all that I've been able to find on it, I don't think that a fretless guitar is correct, homemade or not. The popular guitar repertoire and published guitar methods of the time required frets for precision noting up the neck. Guitar technique was not so much strumming chords as it was playing a melody or harmony with the sung voice. (Of course for banjos frets were very rare. At that time for banjo most noting was done in first or second position on the fretboard where frets are less critical).

May I make the suggestion that if your guitar is fretless, at least mark out the frets with pencil, or incise fret lines with a knife, so you can claim period technique. That method was used on some fretless banjos of the period and I suspect that a guitar player of that time would find them necessary.

Just Google "fret spacing calculator" to get the correct fret placements for however long your nut to saddle distance is.

- Dan Wykes

http://groups.google.com/group/Albert-Baur?hl=en

[ohpkirk]

Re: Camp made guitar

Danny,
As of rignt now the neck is fretless. I was planning on marking out the frets from the nut to where the neck joins the box with a pencil first and then a 'V' gouge (a chisel like tool) to mark permanently where the frets ought to be. I appreciate you suggesting the calculator....
Thanks,

[Rob Weaver]

Re: Camp made guitar

I think you're stuck with frets, there. No one in recent memory in the 1860s would have ever seen a fretless guitar, if in the technical sense such a thing ever existed. Unless you recreate something like the m'banza (sp?), the African-inspired instrument which was the ancestor of the banjo. I always thought that would be a fun and easy stringed instrument to recreate.

[David Swarens]

Re: Camp made guitar

Greetings.

Just a couple of thoughts, in the spirit of trying to make things work.

But I'll start with the disclaimer that the guitar doesn't seem to lend itself to camp made, or even homemade, construction, and I have seen few "folk" guitars, of any period.
One that was memorable though was the one Jimmy Driftwood, of Mountain View Arkansas made from a his bed, in the mid 20th century; quite a stout instrument, and one which can be seen on some of his recordings.

Dangerous ground this, without seeing any period precident, but here goes.

First, a lot of period handwork was a quality of finish we are surprized by today, as seen say in some of the fancy carving done in prison camps of both sides.
Many folks knew their way around with a knife and other basic tools, so I would suggest avoiding the consiously "rustic" effect.

Second, a guitar would have been familiar, and, I believe, a builder would have had the basic idea of a "conventional" instrument, and would mave tried to approximate that.
That is just a guess, but I think that is all there is to work on, absent any document.

So I would think you might wish to have a single hole, placed like a "regular" guitar, rather than modeling after some other instrument, such as the fiddle.

There is a book that has quite a few "folk" instruments, mostly 20th century, "Musical Instruments of the Southern Appalachian Mountains (John Rice Irwin, Shiffer Pub. Co. 1979 &1983) that shows a number of home built instruments, some quite rustic.

There are box banjos, and a few instruments of type unclear, with guitar placed sound holes, many round (as on store guitars) of various sizes, and a number square, and a couple with hearts, and one oval.

Both of the heart shaped sound holes are placed like a standard guitar, and the double lobes faced toward the bottom, with the single point toward the neck.

There is a double soundhole instrument, which is dated 1976, and another from 1932.

The only obvious "guitar" in this collection uses a factory neck on a square box with a square sound hole right in the middle.

As for frets, the are several paths you might consider:

Some traditional dulcimores and their ancestors use "staples" made of bailing wire or similar material, something I guess might be believable in your context.
The wire is bent in a "U" shape, with two short legs; these are stuck into small holes near the edge of the fingerboard.
Yours would need to be wider, for a guitar, but this might work.

I have also seen whittled frets glued to the board, made out of some pretty hard wood.
I have seen this done, and seen the glue residue, on banjos, but again, it might work.

And then from the distant past (18th century and earlier, but still done in some Mexican tradition, especially for Vihuellas) are gut frets.

Gut frets are made from gut strings, wrapped around the neck and tied at the edge.
There was an article on the "special knot" in one of the wugwumps magazines, vol 3, #6, but it doesn't seem to be on that website now.

That article was "Fret not, the fret knot is back"

If you can get store strings, you could use tied frets.

Seems a bit of a slippery slope, but best wishes!

Yours,
David Swarens

[ohpkirk]

Re: Camp made guitar

"But I'll start with the disclaimer that the guitar doesn't seem to lend itself to camp made, or even homemade, construction, and I have seen few "folk" guitars, of any period."

Please elaborate on this statement. Being constructed of items that would have been on hand in a winter quarters I don't see validity in the statement above, but perhaps if you went into detail on why it doesn't seem to be a camp made item I would understand better.

There is nothing 'rustic' or shoddy about the construction of this instrument. I hand made the box as I would any box that I would have sent items in for a mail call. Then I hand carved the groove for the neck to sit snugly against the top and bottom ends of the guitar. The bone nut was set by hand in a slot cut by hand. It has been shaped to look like any nut available on instruments of the time, squared on all sides. I'm no novice when it comes to handling a knife, plane, or any wood working tools. I grew up in a woodshop and was taught on hand tools (I still prefer to use a hand cranked drill and hand plane) and there was no effort of any kind to make it appear rustic.

[Old Cremona]

Re: Camp made guitar

"But I'll start with the disclaimer that the guitar doesn't seem to lend itself to camp made, or even homemade, construction, and I have seen few "folk" guitars, of any period."
.

I think Dave is perhaps saying that the only guitars we know about are of professional construction. I'm not a guitar expert, but I trust Dave's opinion, he's a well respected musician.

Which isn't to say that you won't create anything but a fine instrument, considering your reputation for quality.

[Danny]

Re: Camp made guitar

We can only suppose that camp-made guitars existed, given period accounts of similar winter-camp projects, including other stringed instruments. I think a fiddle or banjo was more likely for a soldier of common trade skills to build, but there were, no doubt, some soldiers with enough luthier knowledge, if not actual experience, enough to set a fretboard and make a functional guitar in camp.

Alas, there's as much burden to prove there weren't camp-built guitars as there is to prove there were. Your project can only be challenged in opinion, not substance, if that helps.

My sense of it is that the staple-style wire frets would be more likely than gut ties for frets, if you must upgrade from pencil or scribed frets. It was after all to mimic the most common style of guitar in the U.S. at that time, and baling or fence wire was readily available around camp, even spent artillery fuse wires. Gut string not as available in the field. I suppose hide glue was available, which would make glued hardwood frets the next likely.

Dan Wykes

p.s. Elderly Instruments now sells Aquila Nylgut banjo string sets in heavier gage just for period Minstrel-style scale and tuning. I'm not condoning anything other than using real gut and wire-wound silk, but these strings look real enough for Mainstream and play very well.

[David Swarens]

Re: Camp made guitar

Hello again.

I was requested to elaborate on my earlier comment, but I think that it was pretty clearly interpreted by an earlier correspondant, who I thank for that, as well as his kind remarks.

I apologize for not responding earlier, but I don't get to the forum as often as I might, or as I might wish.

I was only stating that I had not run into any non professionally or factory made guitars, nor was I familiar with any tradition or period accounts of same.

I think the the frets are the problem, with correct placement being an acknowledged issue for most amateur builders.

I know that is how I got into fretless banjos originally!

With banjos they are not needed, or desired by many.
With Fiddles, never!
Even with dulcimores, the placement is clearer,the notes in a scale rather than all of those pesky half tones, and often only under a single string (on traditional instruments) and even then they are not always "right."

The "folk guitars" that I recall seeing have used factory necks from broken store instruments.

And I certainly do not think that being rustic is a needed characteristic for non factory work.

My favorite examples are early "graffiti," such as at El Moro in New Mexico, with inscriptions form the 18th and 19th centurys, all in the finest hand imaginable, and in stone hard enough that even in that harsh environment that the beauty and skill are still apparent, in some cases hindreds on years later.

I believe, in my earlier post, that I had mentioned the amazing skill of carvers in ACW POW camps, whose work is published in various collections, where the conditions must have been the most difficult.

And I am happy to grant that your skill, and your intention, meet the highest standard of the past or present.

But since this is a "research" oriented site, where citations have more weight than "opinions" I was interested in documents of camp made guitars, either accounts or artifact.

I think we all get creative in various ways, and the past is truley "another country" that holds many secrets; I do hope that no one took my post as a challenge, of any sort, as it was never intended as such.

Back to the sprit of trying to make it work, in a period vernacular, I did run into an instrument, a banjo, with evidence of wire staple frets.

It is hanging in our dining room, and I am sorry that I hadn't recalled it before, to elevate my suggestion from "they could have done this," to "they did do this" (in at least one case).

The instrument in question is mid 19th century, possibly post war but no later, I believe, than early 1870s.

It had "staple" frets, at one time, made of non ferrous metal wire (a magnet doesn't stick) which was inserted into holes drilled along the edge of the (top of the) fingerboard, pretty close to the edge.

Only a bit of one, on the top part of the "2nd" fret remains, except for all of the holes which look like they may still have the cut off ends in them.

Can't tell if they were a retro fret or original element, and might have thought they were just markers without the one which partially remains.

Best wishes on your project, and on finding a brother in arms whose met the same need all those years ago.

Yours,
David Swarens

[Silas]

Re: Camp made guitar

I'm about to commence work on a box banjo and have found this thread very helpful. A couple oak planks in a garbage bin at a warehouse captivated my attention. I considered cigar boxes, but wasn't impressed with what I saw. I've gone towards 1/4" x 4" poplar. Could have used oak, but I'm hoping for more sound vibration off the poplar than I'd get from oak.

I won't be using nails or screws to hold the box together. It'll be pegs and glue exclusively. I'm likely to use sloted brass screws to hold the 1/4" poplar on the box frame. I'm concerned that small headed nails will not be sufficient to hold the poplar on the box frame. The frame will be square - 10.5" - instead of 12"x10.5". (Ten and a half inches is the width of three slats sized at 4" each.) I'm hoping that a square will conduct sound more evenly than a rectangular box.

I've decided to use the violin F's for sound holes. They'll be a little tricky to create, but the finished product will be worth the effort. I'll also decided to purchase violin pegs instead of creating my own pegs. (They're only a buck and a half each from elderly.com. There's something to consistency at an inexpensive price.) To shape the the peg holes, I found a recommendation on the net about attaching a rat tail file to a drill. This will help create a "v" shape instead of straight holes.

After contemplating this for about a month, I'm ready to start this banjo in the next day or so. With work and other projects, I may not get it done this season, but we'll see. If I wasn't practicing at night on my regular banjo, I'd get the soldier banjo done sooner, also.