79 Ny?

[Igor73]

is it photo ACW dated?

[Justin Runyon]

Re: 79 Ny?

The wing on the bonnet, leggings, and white cross belts, all date this image as post war. The 79th war-time belt was black leather (they had no cartridge box belts), their bonnets had wide ribbon device with the NYS seal badge rather than the wing shown in this photo.

Nice image though.

[David Fox]

Re: 79 Ny?

Also, there's the Remington (.50-70?) rolling block rifle. Frederick Todd ("American military Equipage, 1851-1872") has the 79th equipped with Enfields as late as 1868. Remington, according to Flayderman, began rolling block rifle and musket production c. 1867. Springfield assembled a run of rolling blocks, too, from circa 1870-72 as they cast-about for a new regulation general issue rifle...that became the .45-70 M.1873 trapdoor. One would surmise this individual, wearing a uniform very like the 1861 79th NY dress, would date no earlier, and perhaps not much later, than the early 1870s.

[Justin Runyon]

Re: 79 Ny?

Thanks Dave, I guess my head goes to clothes before guns.

[David Fox]

Re: 79 Ny?

The weapon merely bears-out your detailed uniform observations, Justin. Don't have my sources handy, but as I recall New York State pretty much escued Springfield trapdoors in favour of Remington rolling blocks and Peabodys as they withdrew Civil War rifle-muskets after The War.

[Sewing Vixen]

Re: 79 Ny?

For any information on the 79th Highlanders, contact any of these three people:

William "Dewey" Beard at Truth79NY@aol.com
Shane Miles at MILES79NY@aol.com
Rachel Kelly at Sewing79NY@yahoo.com

Dewey is the most knowledgeable out there about the 79th. He always welcomes questions about the reality of the Highlanders. Keep in mind they were not a bunch of silly Scotsmen running around in kilts They were a very rich social club in New York that got caught up in the reality of war.

[Igor73]

Re: 79 Ny?

Thank's to all!

[DougCooper]

Re: 79 Ny?

Keep in mind they were not a bunch of silly Scotsmen running around in kilts They were a very rich social club in New York that got caught up in the reality of war.

that is an outstanding one sentence description of the 79th NY, one that the mostly confused 79th NY reenactment units ought to understand better.

[Sewing Vixen]

Re: 79 Ny?

Mr. Cooper, that is how Rachel Kelly explains their unique situation. She has quite a bit to say about the highlanders. She spends quite a bit of time talking with Dewey and almost spent two weeks living with him doing research on the East Tennessee campaign. Even makes proper highland uniforms too!

[Csayankee]

Re: 79 Ny?

If I may, I have a question for us not that sharp in clothing. How are we dating this to the US.

I did a quick look on the Black Watch Archive and elsewhere and am wondering if we are not looking at a Scottish Soldier instead of a US Soldier. From the drawing (sorry had the best details) of the Black Watch both post and pre ACW they were issued white buffed leather in the criss-cross fashion, hard packs and in one very fuzzy photo there was a unit number painted on the pack. Also looking at the belt buckle and breast plate of the image in the first post I noticed a similar shape / symbol on a 1870 photo of a Scottish Officer hat in India.

Also all images of 1845-1880 Black Watch had stand up collars and shoulder boards. If you really want to you can see that the sporans of the BW were very similar in color and style and look just like the one in the post.

Looking at the Tartan, I notice a similar design to the 1862 BW tartan, although we can not be for sure since we do not have the kilt on hand to see the true colors. But if you notice that for roughly every 3 squares of the lighter colors he has a long dark stripe or line. This is very similar to the BW Tartan on the Archives.

Just thought of another possible view.

[Justin Runyon]

Re: 79 Ny?

It's the number 79 that gives it away. The British 79th (Queen's Own Highlanders) uniform from the time period is different. The epaulettes are really different and the sporran is not the same at all. Doing a search for the mid century Queen's Own uniform will give you a comparison. The Black Watch has no designation "79".

True it can be confusing since the 79th NY was intentionally copying their overall look from teh Queen's Own, but they never copied it perfectly enough not to tell the difference.

The tartan you see in the above image is Cameron Erracht, though there is some argument as to the sett and dye shades being a little different than the modern one, here is what we're looking at in color. This tartan was worn by both "79ths"



Had to update this post as I was able to find an 1880 image of the Queen's Own unifom. The most signifigant things to look at here are the sporran and jacket. The 79th never truly got this British style jacket down. OUr 79th wore a more American style that had the front cut out for the sporran.

[Csayankee]

Re: 79 Ny?

Thanks Justin,

Comparing the Sporan of the BW to the one in the photo, or at least the samples I saw were similar.

[johnnyreb43nc]

Re: 79 Ny?

Hi All,
The Black Watch were designated as the 42nd Regiment.

Jason Tailford.

[Sewing Vixen]

Re: 79 Ny?

Adding to Mr. Runyon's explanation, here is something written by Mr. Beard about the date of that specific style of uniform. 1872-1876



Why are the Albany and Atlanta uniforms postwar?
By William A. Beard III
© The Seventy-Ninth Thistle; Seventy-Ninth New York Highlanders National Newsletter, Vol. III No.2 Winter 2000 (pp. 36-38)


There has been some discussion for years among 79th historians regarding which uniform is correct for the prewar years. Because this information was not known, many reenactors chose to base their impressions on one or the other known styles. Within the last few years information has surfaced which sheds light on which uniform is prewar and why it should be considered so. The most compelling argument is a simple study of known prewar photos. A second study would be to look at the artifacts themselves and study their construction and material and compare it to the many reference books available to researchers. The third study should be of the postwar regulations. These studies along would lead one to conclude that there is more than circumstantial evidence to prove the one uniform over the other.

In the beginning of my research a number of years ago I did not know which uniform was earlier. The more I probed, the more evidence came to light. There is not doubt that the Atlanta and the Albany uniforms are of the same style, pattern, and make. The uniforms currently at Gettysburg and Manassas are also similar in construction and style to each other.

The Atlanta uniform belonged to a 79th soldier named Robert Muldrum. The 28-page set of documents that accompany the uniform in the Atlanta Historical Society mentions the original owner’s name and history. The family admits that he did not fight in the Civil War but joined the 79th after the war. Robert Meldrum, whose Scottish-born father was James Meldrum, was born on July 4, 1822 in New Orleans and died in Brooklyn, New York on January 17, 1914. Meldrum does not show up in the roster of the wartime 79th, but does appear in the postwar records.

The jackets at Atlanta and Albany also possess a secret as to what date they were made. The National Guard system, which the 79th New York joined after the war, adopted the U.S. Army’s regulations. In 1872, the regulations for coats and jackets were laid out and copied by state organizations across the country. The Atlanta and Albany jackets are of the 1872-pattern with one addition. These jackets have a cutout for the sporran. Oddly enough, the pattern chosen for the 79th was the light artillery, not the infantry.

The light artillery pattern jacket was trimmed and piped in a scarlet and had slashes or slits at the waist to facilitate riding a horse. The collars are treated exactly like the Atlanta and Albany jackets. Plus, artillery jackets of the postwar period had red chevrons exactly like the Albany jacket. In addition, 1872 pattern jackets all have the cuff guards or “Brandenburg” cuffs. The artillery jackets as well as the 79th postwar jacket has red cuff guards without trim or piping. I examined 11 different artillery jackets for this article and can find no difference between the 1872 pattern jacket and the Atlanta and Albany jackets, except for the sporran cutout and some collar variations. In addition, I own an 1872 pattern jacket, and use it for comparison study. This style of jacket shows up as a prototype in 1867.

There are many other reasons why the four uniforms differ in date. The other reasons have to do with the style and pattern of the accoutrements. The belt plates on the Atlanta and Albany uniforms date to after the war. The kilt hose for the Atlanta and Albany uniforms are greenish in color, which matches the 1875 uniform illustrations. The gaiters with the Atlanta uniform match illustrations made after the war. The red and white checker glengarries do not appear in any known wartime photograph, but accompany both the Atlanta and Albany uniforms. The red, blue, and white diced glengarries with the Gettysburg uniform appear in numerous wartime photographs. The early-identified photographs showing the whole uniform also show that the garters on the kilt hose are black flashings and the Atlanta and Albany uniforms have red rosettes. These are just the beginning of the differences showing why the uniforms currently (December 2000) at Gettysburg and Manassas are the prewar, and the uniforms currently (December 2000) at Albany and Atlanta are postwar.

:o With original uniforms remaining, purchasing paperwork attached to their uniform change in 1872, uniforms with paper work identifying a soldier to them and having their dates in the 79th, photographic evidence (pre & post war), unaltered 1872 pattern artillery jackets to compare the uniforms with, its very easy to date an image like this.