Learning from Photos

[lhsnj]

Re: Learning from Photos

His jacket is the so called Wytheville Depot pattern, often seen on photos of soldiers whose units originated in the western part of VA. Here's a photo of the real item.

Thanks for the new information on the jacket. I found the regimental history book on the 63rd VA while at the Farnsworth bookstore this weekend, but didn't pick it up.

I did look up Riley in it. And found they had him listed as having deserted 2 times. And also owing the CS Gov't 15.08$ for transportation.

A kin of his Solomon owed the gov't the same 15.08$ for transportation and 39$ for lost ordnance.

[yeoman]

Re: Learning from Photos

Sir, as I was reading some letters to home,http://docsouth.unc.edu/fpn/battle/lee.html#lelee37 page 86, this passage gave me an after thought, if I may quote, "P.S. Write often and tell me all the news about home. Wrap my watch up very securely and direct it to me. Don't forget a key for it, as I have none". My after thought is the second chain is perhaps the key chain. Another two cents, thanks.

[Danny]

Re: Learning from Photos

I considered a shadow but discarded it for the following reasons-first -the "U" of the lower chain is narrower than the upper, second the upper chain dosen't sit far enough out from the jacket to cast a shadow that far down the front. It's shadow would be very close to almost under it. Third, a light souce strong enough to cast a shadow would have had to be almost directly above and would then cast a similiar shadow on the eyes, nose, etc. Thus, I feel it's safe to say he is wearing two chains.

See slightly enhanced of that keychain area attached here. After all, isn't it a shadow of the chain above it? The "U" appears narrower only because of a wider, top-down light source (an upper or roof window typical of a studio at the time) producing a narrower and lengthened shadow of objects in it's path. Easy to recreate if you wanted to recreate the effect - go to an atrium.

The light source may have been strong but was general. This was not a flash-pan photo but a natural light extended exposure, in real life not as defined as the contrasty print makes it seem. It's a slight expression of what's called "posterization" today.

Also, if that shadow were a "second chain", it has no logical destination to a button hole if you follow the curve of it. In fact doesn't it merely merge into the large fold shadow caused by the stress of the fabric between two buttons?

How cool you have this photo to treasure.

Dan Wykes

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Learning from Photos

Could it be the tools for a flintlock rather than a watch chain. As I recall there was a flash-hole pick and a brush at the end of the chains.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Learning from Photos

Hi,

That is an interesting thought Mr. Phillips.

[Danny]

Re: Learning from Photos

...It''s interesting that he apparently has two seperate "watch chains" leading into the slash pocket on his right breast. What else is he carring there besides a watch?

...My first thought was possibly its his cone picker on a chain...

...Could it be the tools for a flintlock rather than a watch chain. As I recall there was a flash-hole pick and a brush at the end of the chains.

... Long watch chains or double chian for the watch and a pendant fob are a minor fashion of the Period and appear in a number of civilian photos (this is the first time I have seen the fashion on a soldier's jacket...Curt

Wow, boys I'm still lookin' for that second chain... ;)

Dan Wykes

[6Pdr]

Re: Learning from Photos

In what collection is that Wytheville Depot Jacket dispalyed?

[yeoman]

Re: Learning from Photos

Sir, I do not think this response will add to this thread but here goes. You are probably correct about this "shadow" and it is more than likely a watch on the "chain". I posted #11 on this thread some four years after post #10 and that was my two cents. I also posted #17, perhaps I should have stated my after thought was, where would he keep his watch key. Also my two cents. Your first post was considered but whats the point of your gibe in the second? Your quote "Wow, I'm still lookin' for that chain. Got any more of that hooch?..." My after thought to bringing up this old thread is Greg got some info on the make of the jacket, my two cents.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Learning from Photos

Hallo!

Long watch chains or double chian for the watch and a pendant fob are a minor fashion of the Period and appear in a number of civilian photos (this is the first time I have seen the fashion on a soldier's jacket).

Typically, the watch was kept in one vest pocket, the chain passing through a button hole, the fob on the other end of the chain or pendant chain kept in the other pocket, and the chain allowed to "droop" on either side.

Curt

[Danny]

Re: Learning from Photos

...You are probably correct about this "shadow" and it is more than likely a watch on the "chain"... My after thought to bringing up this old thread is Greg got some info on the make of the jacket, my two cents.

Mel, Curt - small point but since the very title of the thread is "Learning From Photos" please allow me to press the point. Let's ignore any professional experience I might have in this area, and I do have that. The best analysis would come from a modern-day tin plate, natural light photographer - know any that can comment here?

I still recommend the whole idea of a second chain in this particular photo defies simple vision and verifiable analysis. For the draftsmen here, print it out really big and extend the arc of the lower "chain" on it's logical path. It attaches nowhere. Further logic and understanding of light and material tells you that if it were a second chain it would at least somewhere along it's length catch some light were it metal as expected it would be. Another factor is to see that if it were a second chain, it leaves the vest pocket slit at EXACTLY the same point as the first chain, not laying adjacent or some fractions of an inch away as would be expected. Again, we all have vests, this is verifiable. Also verifiable is to recreate the type of upper lighting, an atrium will do, and see how the loop of a chain is rendered in its shadow below - as a steeper arc.

After all said and done I agree the I.D. on the jacket is of the most value.

Dan Wykes

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Learning from Photos

Hallo!

I am not making a point about the presence or absence of a double watch chain on the image. I was just pointing out the sometimes Period fashion and socio-economic statement of wearing a double chain with the watch on one and a "fob" type device in the form of a pendant, charm, small folding knife, or commonly the wind key on the other.

Just to further the discussion, would someone enlarge and play with the intensity of the lighting, contrast, and shadows of the chain are of the image.
I can do it on Photo Shop, but when I go to save the enlarged edited version, what is saved is just the original size image. Sigh.

Thanks!

Curt
Luddite Mess

[roundshot]

Re: Learning from Photos

As far as the jacket provenance, the photo was first posted on this thread which gives its current location:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9472&highlight=Wytheville

[6Pdr]

Re: Learning from Photos

Thank you sir. What is the "AHC"?

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Learning from Photos

Thank you sir. What is the "AHC"?

Atlanta History Center
...don'cha love all the acronyms? :wink_smil

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Learning from Photos

Wow, boys I'm still lookin' for that second chain... ;)

Dan Wykes

See slightly enhanced of that keychain area attached here. After all, isn't it a shadow of the chain above it? The "U" appears narrower only because of a wider, top-down light source (an upper or roof window typical of a studio at the time) producing a narrower and lengthened shadow of objects in it's path. Easy to recreate if you wanted to recreate the effect - go to an atrium.

The light source may have been strong but was general. This was not a flash-pan photo but a natural light extended exposure, in real life not as defined as the contrasty print makes it seem. It's a slight expression of what's called "posterization" today.

Also, if that shadow were a "second chain", it has no logical destination to a button hole if you follow the curve of it. In fact doesn't it merely merge into the large fold shadow caused by the stress of the fabric between two buttons?...

Dan Wykes

Both chains start at the same location. The angle of the bottom U leads straight to the same button hole. I would surmize that both are held in place by the same bar in the button hole. the shorter U has the watch attached because it is all the way at the bottom of the pocket. Pulled there by the weight of the watch.

The longer looking U has either a fob or key for winding the watch because it doesn't go all the way to the bottom as it is nowhere near as heavy as the watch. It is just tucked in the pocket for safe keeping.

as far as ending, I can't tell because of the poor lighting/quality of the photo area by the vest pocket.

Is it possible that the 2nd watch chain might be a shadow?

I considered a shadow but discarded it for the following reasons-first -the "U" of the lower chain is narrower than the upper, second the upper chain dosen't sit far enough out from the jacket to cast a shadow that far down the front. It's shadow would be very close to almost under it. Third, a light souce strong enough to cast a shadow would have had to be almost directly above and would then cast a similiar shadow on the eyes, nose, etc. Thus, I feel it's safe to say he is wearing two chains.

I agree with 10TnVI. Unless a shadow can cast a another shadow there is a 2nd chain or braid there. If you look at each of the U's formed by the 2 rope like objects hanging each one has its own shadow under it; look for the dark/black areas behind each U.

Further logic and understanding of light and material tells you that if it were a second chain it would at least somewhere along it's length catch some light were it metal as expected it would be...

Dan Wykes

Danny,
watch chains were also made by twisting like rope or braiding a strand of loved ones hair or made with horse hair in the same fashion. So it may not be made of metal which would not reflect light at some point.

Also after looking at some other photos of Cone pricks and brush sets, the chain doesn't look anything like the sets issued by the gov't, so gov't issued cone prick and brush for flintlock musket set can be discarded as a possibilty.