Black Confederate

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Black Confederate

All:

A reminder: Please be nice with this topic or this thread will be shut-down. Not saying anyone is or isn't, but let's keep this discussion to academically-oriented research and keep modern politics/personal views out of it... just the facts and research please.

I'm actually learning a bit from this thread. ;)

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Black Confederate

That soldier looks as white as me.

Totally, I have white friends who've photographed even darker than that fellow!

[lojafan]

Re: Black Confederate

I don't know if some of you saw, but in the first sentance, it states that Silas recieved his "free papers" and went with Andrew on his own accord.

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: Black Confederate

I am not sure why Silas Chandler is the poster boy of some Confederacy that is willing to sacrifice it all (including the very reason states left the Union and the Confederate government formed in 1861).

First, yes as I pointed out Andrew Chandler lived in a slaveholding household. That doesn't make him the champion of black civil rights. In fact, he fought on behalf of a nation willing to DENY Blacks in America their human rights and to keep them perpetually in bondage. See the Constitution of the CSA (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp)

The bottom line is there is NO evidence from the 1850s or 1860s to find Silas free. Mrs. Chandler could and would give any slave she owned to any family member she chose. THAT is one of the basic denials of civil rights to slaves. They do not choose what they are tasked with and for whom they work. Andrew directly benefited from slavery. Everyday at home when he didn't cook, didn't serve himself, had someone lay out his toilet of soap, shaving equipment, etc.; didn't plant or harvest, etc. Be not confused that Mrs. Chandler is the crazed slaveholder and her son is the angelic abolitionist.

There is NO evidence of a Silas Chandler enlisting between 1861-1865 who was Mulatto or Black. Of the three Silas Chandlers who did serve, all were from Virginia and they were White. So if anyone here has some secret enlistment form for Silas please share.

I'm not sure why anyone in the Civil War circuit keeps going round and round with this issue UNLESS they have the very well hidden enlistment and compiled service record for any black man named Silas (or S.) Chandler.

[shubal]

Re: Black Confederate

I don't think there is much discussion that there were armed blacks with the Confederate armies during the war. The question is how many and in what role they were participating?
Free blacks, slaves, or runaways?
Cooks, servants, laborers, or in the ranks?
Brought along by a current or former master, came of their own free will, or enlisted?

and finally, what does it mean to be a soldier? Does it mean that you are along as a teamster or cook or does it mean that you are in ranks for the whole 'shootin match?'

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Black Confederate

I don't think there is much discussion that there were armed blacks with the Confederate armies during the war. The question is how many and in what role they were participating?
Free blacks, slaves, or runaways?
Cooks, servants, laborers, or in the ranks?
Brought along by a current or former master, came of their own free will, or enlisted?

And finally, what does it mean to be a soldier? Does it mean that you are along as a teamster or cook or does it mean that you are in ranks for the whole 'shootin match?'

Honestly, sir, I don't think there ever will be a straight answer for that. The reality is that our historiographical judgement on such a topic wil be colored by the dearth of harder evidence and how we see history as individuals and as academic circles- through our modern-day glasses or a 19th Century lense.

Good point. -Johnny Lloyd

[jake.koch]

Re: Black Confederate

I have seen on various Union muster rolls the listing of teamsters, men that enlisted in the regiment in that category.

Are the African American men that were supposed to be freely volunteering their time or working for compensation from the Confederate government listed in any similiar category on Southern Muster Rolls? I have mentioned this before on threads dealing with the same topic, but why is it so hard to find easily documented cases from unquestionable sources for more then a very few of these men that "chose" to fight for the South, in comparison with the USCTs of the North. I don't think its simply because the Federal Government kept better records at the time. Finding such sources that can be validated are miniscule in comparison to the number of the same sources for USCTs that fought for the North (needles in a stack of needles?) Yes some proof can be found in some cases but on what scale in comaprison, I think next to none.

Of those that did fight, how many did so because they chose too free of any pressure whatsoever? Yes there may be some odd cases, but for the most part I believe that there must have been some sort of pressure involved. I am reminded of the fact that there were thousands of African Americans that turned out after the war for the funeral of Nathan Bedford Forrest. Was that because he was such a revered and respected figure in the African American Community? I think his pre-war, war, and postwar records all would differ from that conclusion.

I was just using the Forrest funeral as an example, and am not trying to start any trouble, I just think the fact that a small amount of cases such as the subject of the recent post being championed as an example is much belittled due to the fact that there are so few. I think if there would have been any large scale group of "Black Confederates" that there would have been overwhelming documentation due to the fact that their presence would be such an anomaly, perhaps the greatest oddity of the war.

[CSchneider]

Re: Black Confederate

Andrew,

Thank you for posting your research, particularly the primary documentation from the CSRs. Of course, all of this documentation merits further examination.

The New York Star Tribune reprinted a letter written by a Union soldier to the Indianapolis
Star, December 23, 1861, with the heading of "Attack on Our Soldiers by Armed Negroes." Part of the letter reads: "A body of seven hundred Negro infantry opened fire on our men, wounding two lieutenants and two privates. The wounded men testify positively that they were shot by Negroes, and that not less than seven hundred were present, armed with muskets. This is, indeed a new feature in the war. We have heard of a regiment of Negroes at Manassas, and another at Memphis, and still another at New Orleans, but did not believe it till it came so near home and attacked our men."

Find the names of these long forgotten Confederate regiments and that should pretty much put this issue to bed.:)

"At four o'clock this morning the rebel army began to move from our town, Jackson's force taking the advance. The most liberal calculation could not have given them more than 64,000 men. Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in that number. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only cast off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. They were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier looking than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie knives, dirks, etc. They were supplied, in many instances, with knapsacks, haversacks, canteens, etc., and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederacy Army. They were seen ridding on horses and mules, driving wagons, riding on caissons, in ambulances, with the staff of generals, and promiscuously mixed up with all the rebel horde. "

Sounds like a great description of slaves brought along by the army to me--men partially equipped by the military serving in necessary support roles, and carrying tools that would be useful on a military campaign. "Slaves with weapons! Impossible! They must be soldiers." Well, gun parts and muskets flints are not a terribly uncommon find in archaeological excavations of slave cabins. Seems that the concern of white Southerners wasn't so much individual slaves with a legitimate use for a firearm here and there, but large numbers of them together organized into groups designed to kill people. And then there's always the likely "Here Silas, my shoulder hurts, carry this gun."

Robert W. Waitt, Jr. found troops from Confederate Jackson and Winder hospitals in Richmond, Virgina, under the command of an individual named Scott, who in March of 1865: "....ordered my battalion from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th divisions of Jackson Hospital to the front on Saturday night... My men acted with the utmost promptness and good will. I had the pleasure of turning over to Dr. Major Chambliss a portion of my negro company to be attached to his command. Allow me to state, Sir, that they behaved in an extraordinary suitable manner."

We know about the units raised during the Confederacy's death throes, but they're not exactly representative of Southern armies during the whole of the war.

The following black soldiers are also listed as captured at Fort Fisher but their rank or military occupation is not listed:

Charles Dempsey 36th N.C. Inf.
Henry Dempsey 36th N.C. Inf.
J. Doyle 40th N.C. Inf.
Daniel Herring 36th N.C. Inf.

And if that's not enough, I've attached the copies of three muster rolls of black Confederate soldiers. While one soldier from the grouping, Joseph Ruben, is listed as a cook, the other two soldiers Wiley Stewart and Alexander (who does not have both names listed) do not have their ranks listed, which may indicate that they were regularly enlisted as privates."

Joseph Ruben was a cook. For the others, you say that not having a rank listed on a military document means that they were privates, I say not having a rank listed means they didn't hold a rank.

Also, in addition to black soldiers being listed as cooks, musicians, and body servants on North Carolina muster rolls, the following troops are listed as privates:

Everett Hayes 10th N.C. Inf.
James Newcom 1st N.C. Btn.
Arthur Reed 40th N.C. Inf.
Miles Reed 40th N.C. Inf.
Henson Revels 1st N.C. Btn. Hvy. Art.

Now that's interesting. Explore this a little further. Muster rolls, regimental histories, pay vouches, the census and slave schedules, etc.

At least one free man of color was enlisted as a regular private in a Confederate unit. John Wilson Buckner, the nephew of an affluent South Carolina black who held numerous supply contracts with the Confederate army, enlisted in the 1st South Carolina Artillery on March 12, 1863. Buckner was wounded in the defense of Battery Wagner on July 12, 1863.

Ditto.

-Craig Schneider

[27thNCdrummer]

Re: Black Confederate

In regards to the question of African-Americans serving under their own free will for the Confederacy and of them defending the land which enslaved them (which seems odd to us today); I think our problem lies in the fact that there is no possible way that we can fully approach the matter in the same light that they did. We know now that slavery was morally wrong and it is inhuman to us today, but I doubt it was approached with the same opinion by people living during the time, black or white. There were differing views on the matter back then.

Remember hindsight is 20/20.

[27thNCdrummer]

Re: Black Confederate

Also, I did a search of all the individuals listed as privates on North Carolina muster rolls; on footnote.com. I found records for all of them, but I'm not a member of the site so I can't view the records. If somebody who is a member of the site could email me these records I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks,

[CSchneider]

Re: Black Confederate

Free trial membership. As a little hint, if you cancel your account before the trial period ends and note the reason for your cancellation as the price of membership, they will offer you a significantly discounted rate for a year's subscription.

-Craig Schneider

[joey12thga]

Re: Black Confederate

Take it for what it's worth. http://cwmemory.com/2010/03/28/looki...ilas-chandler/

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Black Confederate

In the TimeL Life series "voices of the civil war:atlanta" on page 66 is a picture and account of John W Comer lt 45th Alabama, There is an image of Comer and his servant. it is an interesting letter, dated june 14, 1864,, but I will only post the part relevant to the discussion.

"Burrell is now with the wagon train. i sent him to the rear to wash some clothes. one of our men has just got in from the train [and] says he is well and will come to the reg't in a few days. If Burrell holds out just full to the end and sticks to me as well as he has done heretofore & I come out safe, a mint of money could not buy him. there are very few negroes in the army that are no worth anything to their masters at times like this. Burrell is not afraid of anything. he came to us the other day while we were on picket and borrowed some of the boys guns and shot at the yankees. said he wanted to kill one yankee before the war ended."

so, do we consider Burrell a soldier?? or is he a servant, scared to death, and puts on the brave front and plays the part to curry favor with "the boys".
I'll see if I can't scan the image.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Black Confederate

In regards to the question of African-Americans serving under their own free will for the Confederacy and of them defending the land which enslaved them (which seems odd to us today); I think our problem lies in the fact that there is no possible way that we can fully approach the matter in the same light that they did. We know now that slavery was morally wrong and it is inhuman to us today, but I doubt it was approached with the same opinion by people living during the time, black or white. There were differing views on the matter back then.

Remember hindsight is 20/20.

A very good point. Many people try to explain 1860s behavior and customs based on their modern day values. It doesn't work that way.

I was raised in the South before most people on this forum were born. IMO there are many facets or undertones of race relations in the South that Northerners and younger people just can't explain or understand. For most of my childhood my mother worked as a nurse and I was raised by a colored for want of a better term "nanny". However she was much more than that. I considered her my colored mother which I think bothered my dad somewhat. While there was separation between the races socially, there were family relationships of loyalty and trust that are hard to explain in today’s times. If either my family or hers was in need, the other was there to help. In some ways it was almost like we were one family except for the race issue which got in the way and also the different parts of town we lived in. I think there was much of this type relationship going on in the old South among members of both races. Not everyone was a rich plantation owner. For most life was hard and both races had to work together to get along. It is not difficult for me to rationalize a free black or a slave raised in a good environment going off to war to repel an invading army. He may not have been on equal footing in the army but he was there doing his part shouldering a musket or shovel. Enough said and I will step off my soapbox.

[OleMissRebel]

Re: Black Confederate

I could probably write an article for Civil War Times on this, but when I was working at the Old Capitol Museum in Jackson, MS, I was going through the letters of T. Otis Baker (of Echoes of Glory fame) and I came across a letter where he describes an unreal situation.

In the letter to his wife he writes that his regiment was taking a break on the side of the road when another regiment came tramping past. All of the sudden a Major in his own regiment started screaming at a group of men in the other regiment. Turns out that a slave or former slave of his was dressed as a soldier with gear and rifle and marching as handsomely as the other men.

The kicker is......it was a WOMAN. Wild stuff. Too bad we'll probably never know the full story of her and what she was doing geared up with this unit.