A personal love affair with the LoC...

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Fellow collodion junkies:

Check out the 1865 advertisements/broadsides around 26th and Main Street. One of which appears twice:

"Richmond, Virginia. View." (LC-DIG-cwpb-02530) and (LC-DIG-cwpb-02535)

That annoying bend is still part of the street today; some things never change!

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Also given a worthy mention, the amount of horse manure piled-up and lining the street...

Interestingly, the same stuff can be seen again in images such as, "Richmond, Virginia. Libby Prison." (LC-DIG-cwpb-02899). Nothing like viewing poop in high resolution.. ick!

[PetePaolillo]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Also given a worthy mention, the amount of horse manure piled-up and lining the street...

Is that manure or Coal for stoves that was delivered?

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Thats POOP.

[PetePaolillo]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Thats POOP.

:) Well Ok then. Poop it is

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Is that manure or Coal for stoves that was delivered?

Again, see image "Richmond, Virginia. Libby Prison." (LC-DIG-cwpb-02899) under high resolution. Digested grass can even be seen! It is clearly not coal but I would be interested in finding out how coal was delivered in Richmond.

[PetePaolillo]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Again, see image "Richmond, Virginia. Libby Prison." (LC-DIG-cwpb-02899) under high resolution. Digested grass can even be seen! It is clearly not coal but I would be interested in finding out how coal was delivered in Richmond.

Jason, I agree it is not coal. It was a guess at first look. I did examine the Large TIFF file on the LOC of the Libby Prison picture and I saw a lot of what looked like bricks and chunks of rock and dirt etc. in those piles. I also see what appears to be a Union Soldier crouching down in the street and the brick remains of damaged buildings in the distant background. Nothing stood out at me as being Horse Manure but it does like rubble and building debris, after clean up began, after the shelling shelling of Richmond. That is my theory anyway. If I knew how to share the high res views of what I am seeing I would. Look at this view and see what you come up with http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collecti...2003005251/PP/ TIFF (106.1mb)

[Hank Trent]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

If that's manure from the street, what bothers me is how they got the street swept so clean, and all the manure piled so neatly, with those rough cobblestones. The "manure" itself is darker than what's between the cracks of the stones, implying that virtually all of what was between the stones was swept into the piles. How did they do that?

Also note that it's the same color as the dark debris along the edge of the wall at the left, not in the road but on the sidewalk. Is that just coincidence, or was the sidewalk swept less well than the gutter of the street? That seems odd.

The piles look more dumped than swept, to me. The edges are virtually clean. The debris up against the wall at the left looks more swept, or windblown there. You can see the streaks and uneven edges.

Attacking this from another angle, here are the reports for the amount of debris swept up per square yard in the streets of Washington D.C. in the 1890s. (Yes, you can find anything online these days.) The figures are very, very roughly in the 1:10,000 range or less, 1 cubic yard per 10,000 square yards per month.

Estimating each pile in the photo at 2 feet high by 6 feet across, each pile would be about 2/3 of a cubic yard, which would come from 6,700 square yards of street, if it accumulated at the same rate. On a street 30 yards wide, that would mean there should be a pile every 200+ yards, if they came from a once-a-month sweeping. No way. Off by several decimal places. Was there that much difference between Richmond c 1865 and Washington c 1898? Or were these piles from a particularly busy area, where horses stood for long hours, and therefore dirtier than average? The overhead photo seems to show the piles in smaller areas, with large empty areas, that would be closer to the Washington figures.

To me it looks like dirt or manure that was dumped there, but I have no idea why. Was dirt spread over cobblestones to fill in the cracks? I doubt the manure from other streets was delivered there after being sold, since it would go directly on farms or gardens. If it was swept up rather than dumped, how did they manage to sweep it up so clean?

By the way, did you notice that in the enlarged version, you can see a man leaning against the bars of the prison on the near side, and one man's legs and another man's arm sticking out between the bars on the side facing the street.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[lukegilly13]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

At first glance it looked to me like horse droppings as well....however, I pulled up the high def image and now I have another theory. Perhaps it is coal...not coal ready to be used...but in the form of ashes. Does anyone know what time of year this was or how they "cooked" in this particular prison? Could it be that they were operating a coal furnace and took out the ashes into the street? This would account for the various sizes of debris in the piles. To me, it looks like a pile of ashes that were very ineffeciently burned and have been in the street for a few days and possibly experienced some rain. Of course, this is speculation and the only source I can site is myself growing up in the coal fields and having lived with a coal furnace for 18 years where my job was to "take out the ashes" daily.
How many of you have been to a spring event where it got cold at night and would have loved to have a nice ash pile to huddle around and stay warm? Would it have been difficult for the soldiers that we see in the streets to obtain fire wood night after night in the streets of Richmond?
As for the pile that is lighter in color. Well we all know with period photography it doesn't necessarily mean it was lighter in color. But it could just be a fresh pile of ashes that still has the light color and has not "cooled" and turned dark from rain/dew/etc.

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Let me first say that I cannot believe that I am actually looking into the possibility of mounds or whatever being either dirt, coal, or horse poop.

Nothing stood out at me as being Horse Manure but it does like rubble and building debris, after clean up began, after the shelling shelling of Richmond.

First of all, Richmond was never shelled. In fact, no Union troops (other than POWs and the Dahlgren Affair of 1864) entered the city until the occupation in April 1865.

1. As to the clods (LC-DIG-cwpb-02899), the first appears noticeably darker than the succeeding ones. Again, straw or grass can be seen clearly protruding from it. We can agree to disagree, but that to me suggests poop.

Why would this not be conceivable? During a month that saw the 30,000-40,000 Army of the James (the first troops to enter Richmond) and however many horses, city sanitation would obviously be a factor.

The other mounds are lighter and there are rock/brick shaped objects in it. But nothing compared to the foundation rubble on the west side of Libby Prison (as seen in 'Richmond, Va. Side and rear view of Libby Prison')(LC-DIG-cwpb-02246). The Evacuation Fire didn't reach past 15th Street, and Libby is on 20th and Cary Street (the photograph being taken from Cary Street). How that area received so much rubble, I'll have to check.

Attacking this from another angle, here are the reports for the amount of debris swept up per square yard in the streets of Washington D.C. in the 1890s. (Yes, you can find anything online these days.) The figures are very, very roughly in the 1:10,000 range or less, 1 cubic yard per 10,000 square yards per month.

2. Cool statistics, but I don't think that you need to be that technical about it. Going back to LC-DIG-cwpb-02535, those piles are between 25th & 26th Streets on Main Street. Four hospitals are within the vicinity. The building with the open windows and the visible two horse-drawn wagons on left was General Hospital #24. Next to it, General Hospital #23. Across the street, the building with the sticks(?) leaning and the dark clods at the base was the Main Street Hospital. Also, the building with the playbill was General Hospital #22. SO, the mounds appear to be in areas of hospitals and a prison.

Perhaps it is coal...not coal ready to be used...but in the form of ashes. Does anyone know what time of year this was or how they "cooked" in this particular prison? Could it be that they were operating a coal furnace and took out the ashes into the street?

3. This was taken from Libby Hill (looking west) in April 1865 during the occupation by T. C. Roche. I briefly glanced over the city directory from 1857 and saw no apparent coal/coal oil dealers location this far down Main Street. But I will check the 1860 record tomorrow.

Historically yours,

[garyjd]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Let me first say that I cannot believe that I am actually looking into the possibility of mounds or whatever being either dirt, coal, or horse poop.

Sure you don't have too much spare time on your hands? lol

These photos are a treasure trove when you can look at huge high resolution versions that reveal little when they're in books. ~Gary

[kaelin]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Just a thought.. could the men or women that are in the 1st image be cleaning the "gutters" or "drains" of the sides of the street out causing the nice neat piles of what ever in order for the street the drain properly?

I am looking at their posture, and I think I see shovels(tools?) in their hands.

Like any driveway or major road way, the gravel, waste, debris is thrown to the sides rather than stay where it should. What do you think??

[PetePaolillo]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Let me first say that I cannot believe that I am actually looking into the possibility of mounds or whatever being either dirt, coal, or horse poop.
First of all, Richmond was never shelled. In fact, no Union troops (other than POWs and the Dahlgren Affair of 1864) entered the city until the occupation in April 1865.

I meant to say burning of Richmond :o. Forgive my error. Needless to say Fires produce lots of destruction and rubble etc. http://www.mdgorman.com/Written_Acco...hig_441865.htm

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/richmond/libby-prison-richmond.jpg

I realize this is an artist sketch but it appears that the cobbles stone road is covered with dirt. So I suspect the street was cleaned off at one point and those are piles from that clean up possibly, mixed with horse poo perhaps. I will give you that :D

This Photo you originally posted was published in 1865. It could be after the occupation right?
That clearly is a Union Soldier in the distance.
Here is another photo from the 1865 time period presumably after the occupation, because it was taken by AJ Russell who was contracted by the US ARmy.

http://www.mdgorman.com/Prisons/Libby/1865_libby_prison_photo_by_russe.htm

Here is what it looked like when filled with Prisoners. and before a clean up was begun.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tellinghistory/4209529481/sizes/o/

And it is funny that we are discussing and not argueing over the piles. I think it to be fun to anaylize and discuss these photos.

[Hank Trent]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Here is what it looked like when filled with Prisoners. and before a clean up was begun.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/telling...29481/sizes/o/

Is that photo taken from above the retaining wall at the left of the second photo in post #2? If so, the color and texture of the ground in the foreground looks a lot like the same thing as the piles, including the squarish brick or stone-like chunks. Don't know what that means.

If those are swept-up poop piles, I'm still amazed at what a thorough job they did on those rough cobblestones.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[lukegilly13]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

3. This was taken from Libby Hill (looking west) in April 1865 during the occupation by T. C. Roche. I briefly glanced over the city directory from 1857 and saw no apparent coal/coal oil dealers location this far down Main Street. But I will check the 1860 record tomorrow.

Historically yours,

But couldn't they still be burning coal in the furnaces inside the building?
Maybe all the piles aren't the same thing. Some do appear to be horse poop!