A personal love affair with the LoC...

[Hank Trent]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Edited by an evil moderator...

Y'know, I'm often surprised how differently other reenactors are thinking about what they're doing, even though they seem to be in the same hobby at the same event. So I am sorta curious what intrigues other people about studying these photographs.

Here's my answer:

If I lived in the 19th century, I most likely would know exactly what those piles were and why they were there, same as someone in the 21st century would know what a series of orange barrels along the highway meant.

My purpose for reenacting is to try to portray a 19th century person accurately. Therefore, if I don't know, I'm farther from my goal. If I do know, I'm a tiny step closer.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

I meant to say burning of Richmond :o. Forgive my error. Needless to say Fires produce lots of destruction and rubble etc. http://www.mdgorman.com/Written_Acco...hig_441865.htm

True. But again, the Evacuation Fire didn't reach past 15th Street.

I'm glad that you referenced Mike Gorman's website because he was the one that first introduced me to the piles as being horse poop! I can ask him about it further on Saturday if you require.

And it is funny that we are discussing and not argueing over the piles. I think it to be fun to anaylize and discuss these photos.

Sure, but I don't care to waste my time looking through PAGES of the city directory (which is not available online) or a circulating newspaper for information on coal dealers or "pile-leads" if there is no sizable interest. Of which there does seem to be!

If I lived in the 19th century, I most likely would know exactly what those piles were and why they were there, same as someone in the 21st century would know what a series of orange barrels along the highway meant.

My purpose for reenacting is to try to portray a 19th century person accurately. Therefore, if I don't know, I'm farther from my goal. If I do know, I'm a tiny step closer.

That's a good point, and I agree. But I wonder if these piles are a frequent Nineteenth century occurrence or one that is very personalized (i.e. April 1864, Richmond City, Main St., &c.). That is worth taking into consideration.

[PetePaolillo]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

True. But again, the Evacuation Fire didn't reach past 15th Street.

So none of the debris was cleared to any of the unburned (destroyed areas) either?

I'm glad that you referenced Mike Gorman's website because he was the one that first introduced me to the piles as being horse poop! I can ask him about it further on Saturday if you require.

Can you ask your horse poop expert friend what the correct 19th century term for it was? I always wondered. Did they call it poo, poop, maure, road apples, What?

Sure, but I don't care to waste my time looking through PAGES of the city directory (which is not available online) or a circulating newspaper for information on coal dealers or "pile-leads" if there is no sizable interest. Of which there does seem to be!

Hank Trent asked about this by the way. This thread on horse poop piles has more discussion than any other right now. I would say theire is an interest ;)


.

I think Hank made an excellent point. They knew what it was. If we don't, then we need to learn. I wonder if there are any other photos that show piles of poop in streets this high. It seems to be an awful lot and why I am pretty convinced that while yes there may be poop in the piles, it is not the majority of the pile.

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Okay, last night I mapped all the photographs with the piles in question. In addition, the ones of Libby Prison on a 1862 map (see attachment):

1. The areas in red are where the dark material was seen. Circles being the piles and lines being the retaining wall.
2. Xs indicate the approximate area where the photographers took the images from
3. And I marked in the orange arrow the intersection where the engraving was

Again, those photographs include:

*T.C. Roche, "Richmond, Virginia. View." (LC-DIG-cwpb-02530) and (LC-DIG-cwpb-02535)
*"Richmond, Virginia. Libby Prison." (LC-DIG-cwpb-02899)
*Engraving (taken from same location)
*A.J. Russell, "Richmond, Va. Side and rear view of Libby Prison." (LC-DIG-cwpb-02246)
*"Libby Prison" CDV

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Jason, I think you did an amazing job zooming in on the refuse piles within what to me, at first glance, seemed an ordinary cityscape. Now, thanks to your map, we know the piles lay on a road between wharfs and large public buildings. From this fact, and their appearance, I don't doubt that the majority of the refuse spent its formative hours inside of a horse or mule.

Hank brings up an interesting point about relative accumulations, but I can see quite a bit occurring in Richmond in 1865: each army wagon moving up that street, drawn by six mules, would dump about 150 lbs. a day; each four horse ambulance would add another hundred. And there was a lot of equine traffic with the army moving through. Likely the piles contained trash dumped or flushed from the adjoining buildings as well (including ashes, paper trash, coal slag, and the odd paving stone), but the great majority, by bulk, could easily come from animals.

By contrast, Washington in 1898 (the date of the reference cited by Hank) had considerably less horse traffic. The streetcar lines, for example, had begun to convert to electricity and traction some ten years earlier.

It's interesting that in the photo under discussion the folks employed in cleaning the streets are all apparently working hard -- all of them look pretty blurry -- but as mentioned earlier they seem to be focusing on the gutters.

There's another interesting detail lower down in the full photo -- a slightly raised flagstone walkway across the street that would have been easier to keep clean. This reminds me of Horatio Nelson Taft's diary of Washington during the war, where he mentions local boys charging pedestrians a penny to sweep the street crossings for them.

Excellent find, and discussion.

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Is that photo taken from above the retaining wall at the left of the second photo in post #2? If so, the color and texture of the ground in the foreground looks a lot like the same thing as the piles, including the squarish brick or stone-like chunks.

I think Hank is on to something, a higher resolution on Main St. shows this better. There was definitely some sort of digging or material along 20th St. too. The A.J. Russell's photograph doesn't show really show the darker "stuff" from the south end of Libby.

A CDV (LC-DIG-stereo-1s02923) from Alexander Gardner dated April 6, 1865 shows that same area better. Piles of some material are shown stacked in the yard; it couldn't be a building though because of our previous posted images showing the lot empty.

There this great photo by C.R. Rees from the Chicago Historical Society that shows the lot without those stacked piles. Prison Guards (possibly the city battalion) can be seen at Present Arms on left. And the dug out lot better visible.

And there was a lot of equine traffic with the army moving through. Likely the piles contained trash dumped or flushed from the adjoining buildings as well (including ashes, paper trash, coal slag, and the odd paving stone), but the great majority, by bulk, could easily come from animals.

Mike is absolutely correct; let's not forget about the company itself, Libey & Co. advertising themselves as, 'Ship Chandlers & Grocers.' (as seen in the photograph) The most prominent evidence of trade being the GIGANTIC ships docked off Dock Street! Before the war, Libby had actually just been a warehouse where ocean-going ships were refitted and supplied.

I think that some of the piles on Main Street are both of dirt (lighter color) and one of horse poop. Further down Main St. perhaps some more. Thoughts?

[Matthew Semple]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Here is another picture of the dugout lot from a similar angle to one of the pictures Mr. Spellman posted.

Additionally, take notice of the building to the left of Libby Prison. This building appears destroyed and in ruin in the photo I posted. Compare that to how the building looks in the picture Mr. Spellman posted. When did the damage to that building occur and where did all that rubble go? That building is across the street from Libby Prison and you can make out the ruins to the left hand side of the first Libby Prison photo posted in this thread. There may be some rubble mixed in the piles located near the men working next to the wagon.

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Here is another picture of the dugout lot from a similar angle to one of the pictures Mr. Spellman posted.

Matt, that is the A.J. Russell photograph (LC-DIG-cwpb-02246) that was stated in Post #13.

When did the damage to that building occur and where did all that rubble go?

I haven't seen any evidence of the original structure from any of these photographs (other than the rubble left in the empty lot). Again, Post #21 I posted the Alexander Gardner CDV and that shows piles of stacked material. All images within the same time frame, so we have to look at the historical record prior to April 1865. I'm unsure of what building that was but I will look into it.

I think the implication may be that the dirt originally upheaved (along 20th St.) and seen in the original photos we posted, could be from that construction. Though perhaps not the rock rubble from the building itself.

[lukegilly13]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Charleston, SC....1865 with similar "piles" in the street

[roundshot]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Back in my high school days (1960s) I spent several very hot summers working in that very same building shown in the first picture. It was then owned by American Furniture and Fixture Co. which made and finished interior bank fixtures. I was "paint boy" in the finishing room. Back during the war it was the Texas and Arkansas hospital and also held Federal POWs from time to time. I believe it has been converted to loft apartments now. Its interior was constructed of huge stout beams and there was an eagle carved on one of the floors, allegedly by a Union prisoner. No, the war was not that long ago.

[Moose]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

From the 1860 Richmond Buisness Directory (the last one that was published before the war):

Coal Dealers.

Blair, Albert, 14th nr Mayo’s Bridge.

Brazeal, Wm. C., n side Basin bt 8th and 9th.

Brown, E., cor 9th and Basin Bank.

Cottrell, J. F., n side Basin bt 8th and 9th.

Davis, Wm. H., 21st bt Main and Franklin.

Deaton, J. C., cor 9th and Basin Bank.

Ford, M. W., cor 9th and Basin Bank.

Green, B. W., Jr., Cary bt 15th and 17th.

Hawes, Sam’l P. & Son, cor 18th, s side Dock.

Hill & Fisher, cor 9th and Basin Bank.

Larus, P. C., Dock bt 17th and 18th.

Lipscomb, C. B., 14th nr Mayo’s Bridge.

McMurdo, C. J., nr Petersburg Depot.

Poitiaux & Botts, 17th bt Clay and Dock.

Roberts, Wirt, cor 17th and Dock.

Selden, M. C. & Co., n side Basin bt 9th and 10th.

Stanard, John C., office 11th bt Main and Bank.

Werth, Jno. J., cor 10th and Basin Bank.

Whiting, M. D., nr Petersburg Depot.

Guano Dealers.

Bacon & Baskerville, Cary bt 12th and 13th.

Cave, Felix H., 12th bt Main and Cary.

Ruffin, Frank G., cor 11th and Basin Bank.

McGruder, S., Sons, cor 13th and Cary.

Schar, Kohler & Co., Cary bt 13th and Pearl.

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

Awesome! Thanks for looking up all those listings, Joe!

It appears that the only immediate coal dealer is William Davis, a block north of where the A. J. Russell's Libby Prision photograph was taken. And no dealer is listed at the area of 25th & Main St. (where the discussion first began). This suggests, overall, that there was not significant interest in coal or guano dealers within the vicinity of the presented photographs in 1860.

I'm glad that you referenced Mike Gorman's website because he was the one that first introduced me to the piles as being horse poop! I can ask him about it further on Saturday if you require.

I asked Mike his opinion on this matter, to which he replied, "Of course it's horse poop, what else would it be?"

A CDV (LC-DIG-stereo-1s02923) from Alexander Gardner dated April 6, 1865 shows that same area better. Piles of some material are shown stacked in the yard; it couldn't be a building though because of our previous posted images showing the lot empty.

I also asked him about the lot with the rubble next to Libby Prison. He said that it always remained an empty lot during the war and lumber was stacked there at one point (I believe, for Libby's business).

SO, this neither verifies nor disproves the piles as being coal or poop. Perhaps that interest grew between 1860-1865, but I would be skeptical. Again, a 30,000-40,000 army occupied the city in April 1865 following the Evacuation. For an area near Rockett's Landing, where rows of cannon, ammunition, supplies, and of course soldiers occupied, horses (and their lovely droppings) will follow.

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: A personal love affair with the LoC...

The Daily Dispatch, April 11, 1864:

Auction sale of condemned horses and mules.
Quartermaster's Office, Gordonsville, March 28, 1864.

I will sell at public auction, at this post, on Thursday, April 21,

50 condemned horses and mules

A large lot of old harness and saddles

And wagons too heavy for the service.

also,

A lot of manure.


W B Richards, Jr.
Major and Post Q M.