Help in uniform identification of ancestor(s)

[Fran Knebel]

Hello!

I found your forum when I was looking for information regarding 2 ancestral pictures in family albums that I've inherited. One or both of them are probably my great-grandfather. The photo of the gentleman wearing the "feathered hat" is an Ambrotype that I've scanned. On that Ambrotype, the gold marks on the sleeve and the insignia on the hat have obviously been painted onto the picture in gold paint, along with some rosy cheeks, (underneath the layer of glass, apparently, and not a very good job upon close inspection!), but the picture is in excellent shape. Someone made a photo-paper photograph out of the second one - and the oval around the head area would appear to also be caused by an Ambrotype frame. I am not even sure that is a uniform he is wearing - but could be. The latter is dated 1862, the year Thomas enlisted.

Great-Grandfather, Thomas A. Hash, served from March 15, 1862, (then age 17), until August 25, 1864, in Company E of the 8th M.S.M. Cavalry, then from August 26, 1864 to January 11, 1866 in Company G of the 13th Missouri Cavalry. (His brother served in the Confederacy, but I have no dates. I just don't know which uniforms the pictures show.) His widow's pension file shows Thomas was a private, so perhaps the stripes are some photographers idea of embellishment! Since these photos are in family ancestral albums, I know that these are either of him or his confederate brother.

His War Dept. Adjutant General's Office file has a Form 119-I that has some interesting comments handwritten on it! Thomas is shown as "absent" as follows: Aug. 31/62 - looks like it says "on detail & serv since August 21/'62, June 30/63, under arrest since June 28/'63. (!!) Then again, "Aug 31/'63, under arrest at Springfield since June 29/'63. Feb 28/65, on (word appears to be 'scout' since Feb 19/65"

Sounds as if that 17-18 year old was in trouble a lot - I don't think this means he was a Prisoner of War. Curiosity makes me wonder about the kind of trouble that would have put a 17-18 year old in jail for so long. Perhaps he tried to go a.w.o.l?

I have his Civil War pension file, but not his Civil War records - don't know if it's worth paying for them and if I'd get more details in them.

Also, are you familiar with any online historical records of the Missouri Cavalry(s) in which he served?

Thanks so very much

Fran Knebel

[ScottCross]

Re: Help in uniform identification of ancestor(s)

Both images are of Union Cavalrymen. The ambrotype on left shows the trooper wearing a regulation Uniform Hat with plume and officer's Cavalry Hat insignia. The artist has tinted his Corporal's chevrons gold, but they should have been yellow. The soldier at right is wearing a Mounted Service Jacket worn by Cavalry and Artillery. The inscription at the top "T. A. Hash 1862" would suggest this is your ancestor.
You can get histories of these regiments at the National Park Service's website:

http://www.nps.gov/civilwar/soldiers-and-sailors-database.htm

[Fran Knebel]

Re: Help in uniform identification of ancestor(s)

You are a gem!
Sorry I didn't make it clear that I saw my great grandfather's name on the 1862 photo. :p I am primarily trying to i.d. the uniforms, and whether the 2nd might be him after he'd served awhile - skinnier and a bit older.
Since I don't have any government file, other than the Pension application file, the information that he served only as a private could be wrong. He died in 1888, and his widow was filing for the pension, (after she'd gone through two more spouses! She obviously didn't get it!! ;) Is it possible that the "trooper wearing a regulaton uniform hat with plume and officer's Cavalry Hat insignia" could have been the same man previously in the 8th regiment of mounted troops? Wikipedia info on the 8th Regiment of the Missouri Calvary says that they were responsible for the Huntsville Massacre. :( I can't help but wonder if that might be why he was under arrest for those two months, although no one was ever prosecuted.

I took the liberty of putting in images of some of the info on the 1917 pension page in the event you might be able to recognize the military unit comments handwritten there better than I can.
Thank you again for your fast response and the good uniform information!!

Also, this is from the widows application. I don't know what the letters Missouri S.M.C.V. or I.M.C.V might mean

[Cumpston1862]

Re: Help in uniform identification of ancestor(s)

Fran-

I had an ancestor in the 2nd M.S.M.C. myself and quite honestly I find the records rather confusing. They seem to be either incomplete or mixed up as they have many gaps in them. The abbreviation MSMCV stands for Missouri State Militia Cavalry Volunteers. Most of these units as well as the EMM (Enrolled Missouri Militia) stayed in Missouri and Arkansas fighting guerillas. The fighting was very ugly and personal with many acts of atrocities being charged against combatants on both sides.

My ancestor served from 1862-65 as well and at one point was charged with desertion and than his record is amended saying he was on "detached service". When he applied for a pension later it was denied because of the desertion charge. As the matter was pressed the detached service record came to light and he eventually got his pension.

I would highly recommend pursuing your ancestor's pension record from the National Archives as many of your questions could be answered within its pages. Another one of my ancestors, according to his pension record, actually went back to several of his old comrades and got affidavits from them concerning his wounding at Ft. Donelson and it was a fascinating blow by blow read about that cold February day in 1862. If you reside in Missouri it is my understanding that many of the Civil War pension records have been moved from Washington D.C. to Kansas City. Its possible you could go there and actually pull his records.

Here is the link to their site.

http://www.archives.gov/kansas-city/

Your very fortunate to have pictures of your ancestors especially Pvt. Hash. I have not seen many identified pictures of MSM Cavalrymen so thanks for sharing!

[ScottCross]

Re: Help in uniform identification of ancestor(s)

Fran,
I don't believe that the two images are of the same man: the shape of the face; size of the mouth; and line of the brow are different.
I also forgot to mention that the man on the left with the hat is wearing a Fatigue Blouse (Sack Coat) which was worn by all branches of the service.

[Fran Knebel]

Re: Help in uniform identification of ancestor(s)

I sure appreciate the information! I had no idea what the MSMC meant. You know how it is in families -- the "stories" get changed through the generations, until things are pretty distorted.

I actually do have the entire Pension File. It's a thick file, but the only notes about military service are from the two papers I copied in my post. One of those was completed by his widow many years later, and one completed by the War Department that same year. As for the application: Long story, short - After my Gt-grandfather froze to death in 1888, in a blizzard while coming home from work in an Idaho mine, my G-GM re-married. 2nd hubby was a wife-beating alcoholic, so her sons ran him off. In her affidavit, she claims she "heard he had died", so she married another man. They moved to New Mexico, where husband #3 was shot in a gun fight, that he instigated, according to the coroner's inquest report in the Civil War pension file!!! She then found out that hubby #2 was still alive. ("Edge of Night" has nothing on my family! :) ) Dirt poor, with no skills, she applied for the pension of her 1st husband, with scads of handwritten [I]family[I] affidavits in that pension file that verify her stories, and how my gt-grandfather had died. Needless to say, the pension was denied! Since she didn't apply for the pension until 1917, 50+ years after his service, one cannot be certain about the exact details of his service in Missouri.

I live in Montana, but I plan to follow thorough with your suggestion, and contact the Kansas City Archives to get some ideas on further research. I'm certain that files can be ordered. I am still going to hold out hope that the War Department Office must have some record if they were able to fill out that Form 119-1 that they put in the pension file.

That war was unique, for sure. I do believe I have a letter someplace in the tons of papers I've recently inherited, that claims one of T. Hash's 5 brothers was in the confederate service. There were so many extenuating circumstances with these very young, volunteer soldiers, I think, and we might not be at all surprised at their choices if we knew some of the things they were going through. Even my gt-grandfather's arrest & two month incarceration was not enough to keep him from re-enlisting in the 13th, and serving longer. I have located the following in my Great-Uncle's papers about another brother of T.A. Hash: The note written by him about his uncle reads: "James Fieldon Hash, b 11/12/1840, was a soldier in the Northern Army of the U.S. in the war between the States in 1861-64. He was sick in bed in his tent. Some southern soldiers found him. They took his bedding, food, and clothes. He died from cold and exposure. They forced the man who had been taking care of James to walk 8 miles in the snow bare foot and in his underclothes to their camp as a prisoner of war. A short time after the war was over, a man appeared in Bolivar, Missouri, the home town of James' family, wearing James Fieldon's pants. A friend of James knew the pants belonged to James because he had helped to patch them when they were together in the army. Some northern friends of James Fieldons sent the man over the Great Divide never to return." (Personally, I've done enough work on family history to wonder about those details a bit. Like, I imagine most of their pants had patches. This must have been "unique patch" - or, they were just out for revenge. LOL Interesting though.)

Sorry to take up so much of your time. You can see that I'm really "pumped" about all of this family history stuff!

- - - Updated - - -

Great observation! I've looked at so many of these ancestral photos that I'm "seeing things". LOL This must mean that that is one of T.A. Hash's brothers or cousins. There are only two Civil War photos, of which I'm aware at this time, in my entire inherited photo collection. One can probably assume that the ambrotype is of a close family member! And, thanks for the comment about the "fatigue blouse/Sack Coat! That, and knowing that he was a corporal, should really help me with an eventual i.d.

As I mentioned in my reply to Scott, I sure wish it was as easy to get Civil War military records as for the more recent wars. I was able to write to get my husband's complete WWII U.S.M.C. file, and they even sent him new medals!

Have a great day!

I so appreciate this forum, and the ideas and info you've given me!!

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry, Scott & Louis -- didn't put my posts in the right places, - so they show up together, and called Louis "Scott" at one point. Apologies for losing my brain here today. :)

[Fran Knebel]

Re: Help in uniform identification of ancestor(s)

Hallelujah! I'd forgotten to check your link to the NPS site to which you referred me Scott.
Bingo! I found Thomas - and a verification of the Missouri Cavalry's he was in - and of his rank of pvt.
I am also sure that I found James Fieldon Hash, his brother who died in the tent. There were only two Hash's with any pertinent given names, (Thomas A. and James F. and both were in the 8th Regiment, Missouri State Militia Cavalry from Polk County - where they lived! Thomas is also shown in the 13th Regiment, Missouri Cavalry, just as his pension file says. I think you guys have helped me solve the problem.
It seems that there are pages and pages of Hash's among the confederates. All of the Hash boys in that family were born in Arkansas, so that makes sense. There are several "Andrew Jackson Hash" men, and he did have a brother by that name. At any rate, THANK YOU men for the help in undoubtedly solving these two union soldier photos!!!!