Confederate Navy Belt Plate

[SCTiger]

Bought this at a Alabama Antique mall, it was listed as being an old "Canadian Navy" belt buckle, since (as I was told by the seller) that the Confederacy didn't make belt buckles and their Navy was too small, and they didn't wear uniforms. I like history lectures like that!

I've done about 15 hours of searching on the internet and I am sure it's a genuine Confederate Navy sword buckle. If anyone has any further information, let me know. The stamp on back is "1864." Also let me know if it's worth more than $22.

[Iron Scout]

Re: Confederate Navy Belt Plate

Greg,

Hate to potentially burst your bubble but dated CS buckles pretty much are a myth. This may be an old Hanover Brass piece as many from the 70s are being passed for originals these days. Who knows though. My suggestion is to contact Steve Mullinax via his website for authentication. Most of these CN buckles were cast in England and came on English manufatured belts. The Va Hist. Society has several great examples.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[roundshot]

Re: Confederate Navy Belt Plate

I'd say $22 is about right. The date itself is a giveaway. The originals are much more finely crafted than this, as well. You can buy repros of this plate from Tim Parsley or Gary Williams, See this site for others: http://www.relicman.com/fake.htm

If you want, send Harry Ridgeway at this site a pic and get his opinion.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Confederate Navy Belt Plate

Hallo!

It would depend upon any obvious or hidden hallmarks (as I know a maker who lost-wax casts originals but adds his secret hallmarks to prevent forgeries... however the one original I know is unmarked).

A date, and a date struck with random individual stamps instead of a single unit "always" bothers me...

However, on a diffrent tact....

At face value, it DOES appear to be a very rare Confederate State Navy "CN" sword belt plate. There is one in the Virginia Historical Society.

You may have done very WELL!
IF not, at $22 IMHO it is not a bad price for a copy.

Curt
Never Happens to Me Mess

[SCTiger]

Re: Confederate Navy Belt Plate

Ok I will contact Steve, but I looked at the lines of the repos behind the "CN" and they are this fine. Why would a faker go to the trouble of adding the "1864" date if the originals didn't have this? Seems like a lot of trouble to go thorugh.

This just drives me nuts, I know enough to get in trouble but not enough to get around the frauds. The worst part, I might one day pass up a genuine article, thinking it's a fake or second scenario, it's genuine but not, and I get raked over the coals, more often this happens. How abouit this, the item really is genuine, the fakes have gotten better than the originals, so the artifakes become the new standard, so now the original stuff is wrote off as being too rough or crude.

A little background on the man who sold it to me, this was his only military item, he mostly had old soda bottles, coins, baseball cards and car tags. He collected stuff but, he wasn't a "collector." I didn't see anything that would indicate he had any connection to reproduction sources. There was no other CW items repo or otherwise. . He even played down the significance of the "CN" as Canadian. So either this was the best con to sell a $22 belt buckle OR it's the real deal.


I can't imagine the anxiety people experince in buying costing thousands of dollars and I wouldn't even look at Ebay.

[roundshot]

Re: Confederate Navy Belt Plate

Listen, Greg. Even the most experienced dealers in buckles and artifacts get burned now and then. Look at what Harry Ridgeway says on his site.The date is what attracts the unsuspecting, but I've never seen a date on a plate (only bench numbers).

But hell, you only paid $22, not $5,000+, so no loss. Gary Williams of Hanover Brass, who "most likely" cast this since he had an exclusive arrangement with the Va. Historical Society (where the original resides in the Steuart Collection), can also easily tell you whether this is one of his or not. He also has a subscription site to help with this: http://www.civilwarfakes.com/repros_E/reproshome_E.shtm

While I won't absolutely brand this as not the real thing, there is a guy here in Carolina of less than dubious intention that had a CN like this at an Averasboro event just last year. When I asked him where he found it (generally) , he replied "In the ground." Yea, right. He also had an Oval Arkansas, an Oval CS with stars, and an Oval Mississippi. He wouldn't let me see the backs. No one has that much luck to find all those rare plates.

One other thing, the original CN buckle was very well made (not crude) and generally 1-2 mm larger than the recasts, which shrink. The original dimensions on this plate are 51mm x 76mm. In other words, if it seems to be good to be true it probably is. A whole cottage industry has evolved around this so "be of stout heart."

[1stMaine]

Re: Confederate Navy Belt Plate

Greg,

I was going to refer you to the NVRHA ebayfakes forum, but it appears to be down at the moment.

There is an amazing "after market" in fake CW relics, so much so that, like Bob points out, one has to tread carefully, and to almost assume whatever you are looking at IS fake, unless proven otherwise.

If you are interested in one good test of this buckle's authenticity, then give Gary at Hannover Brass a ring. He can tell you the actual dimensions of the original buckle. If this is a fake, it'll be 1mm or 2mm smaller in the dimensions due to shrinkage from molding. What happens is that Gary uses an original for the mold. When he casts from it, his casting will be slightly smaller (it has to, in order to fit into the mold from the original) and when the 'redacter' or 'faker' uses Gary's buckle as a master, HIS new repro will be even smaller, etc.

As Bob points out, there are virtually no markings on original CS buckles. Markings are so rare as to be pointed out in the reference books, such as Tice's and Mullinax' works. Another good flaw to look for is a slightly depressed or flattened area where the faker will grind off the stampings that Gary adds to his items, It's almost impossible to get these to match to the surface, and most fakers aren't willing to put in enough time to really make it look good. they'll just add more patented patina gunk to it to hide the flaws, etc.

Speaking of flaws, Gary also has pix available of his work where you can match flaws in the surface detail of his castings to the buckle(s) you might be interested in. Chances are, if the same flaw is present, it's a recast of one of Gary's buckles.

Anyway, considering the price of Hannover Brass buckles these days, you still got a good deal.

Respects,

[SCTiger]

Re: Confederate Navy Belt Plate

Thanks guys, I am getting a good laugh at myself: this feels like a Seinfeld episode. Well here is what Gary Williams at Hanover said:

From:
To:
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: CN Belt buckle Reproduction, never buy a Confederate buckle with a date 1860 whatever. They were never stamped like that.

Hey guys I just bought a great reproduction Hanover Brass "CN" belt buckle/artifake!

:p:p:p

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Confederate Navy Belt Plate

Hallo!

"A date, and a date struck with random individual stamps instead of a single unit "always" bothers me..."

Perhaps this is the stuff of its own post and discussion...
Not every reproduction is done as a fake or fraud. IMHO, the diffrence between a high quality and exacting reproducion and a fake or counterfeit is ONLY "intent."
The "intent" being the specific desire to use high quality and exactness to mispresent the repoduction as an original item for the purposes of status, prestige, or all too often monetary gain.

Many of the high quality, exacting reproductions we use today as our kit and gear WILL BE the fakes and counterfeits being sold 50-100-200 years from now, Partly at the hands of sellers and buyers whoare uniformed and uneducated, but also do to the desire of frauds and cheats to make money off of the gullible, ignorant, naieve, unsuspecting, and greedy.

Future? Ha, look at EBAY (EBAD) today... :( :(

Curt

[ronayne64]

Re: Confederate Navy Belt Plate

Hey all, I stumbled across this forum and thought I'd lend what help I can. As you've already discovered it is a fake. As for the NVRHA ebay fakes forum, we're not down...possibly moved since you've last been to the site. Either way, for those of you who collect civil war items, this is a great place to get answers (before and after) you make that purchase. Here is the link: http://www.americanrelichunters.com/...s/confignef.pl
It's a great group of guys always looking to help people...and have gotten rid of thousands of very well done fakes and often ridiculous fantasy items trying to be sold on ebay.

Good luck,
Ryan

[garyjd]

Re: Confederate Navy Belt Plate

The 1864 just did not have a period look to in in the way it was stamped. Anyway it has a nice aged look about it.~Gary

[SCTiger]

Re: Confederate Navy Belt Plate

I cleaned the piece up. The letters G.W. are now visible. On the left is a picture from the Hanover Brass Co., same buckle on the right with 30 plus years of corrosion removed, well if anyone else learns from my folly, it was worth it. Thanks to everyone for your help. Bob you hit this one on the head.

[Matthew Semple]

Re: Confederate Navy Belt Plate

I saw a very similar buckle come up for auction on a well known auction website last year.

The numbers on the back must have been handstruck by the same individual. It had the same size numerals and spacing as the picture you have provided. (I could have sworn that it was the same exact buckle.)

I also came also across one of these in an antique store in Portsmouth, VA about four years ago. Fortunately, I did not have the money on hand to get it. (It was much, much more expensive than what you paid.) It had the same handstruck qualities and same size and space numbering as the one you showed.

It is a high quality reproduction which has been marked on back with 1864. If it had not been marked on the back, it may very well have passed as an original and gone into many collections as such.

$22 dollars is a great price to pay for a high quality reproduction. The best thing is that you posted it and let many other people know that this particular piece is not an original. Thank you for doing such.

I hope that this helps.

Very repectfully,
Matthew Semple