Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

[vamick]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

That is exactly the case according to information I recently learned in conversation with a local historical society in Pearisburg Va a local man there that I met at a grave marker ceremony has identified two of them as his kin ( cousin I think it was and ggfather) anyhow...if you'll notice the small pin like clasp on the collar of the thrid man..this was the giveaway, he also had a post war picture of his ggrand mother with the same pin on ( a sort of id pin with the mans name engraved) as I remember it he even convinced another 'noted local' Dr. James Robertson...the problem with this story is my faded memory but as I remember it they were NC troops ( the third man was from just a few countiues away Grayson co. Va on the NC line he enlisted in NC to serve with his other kinfolk believe their names were Henson??) they were captured and spent the next couple of days identifying the dead from their regiment and then left for Camp Douglas on July 7th er so...anyhow I emailed someone who should be able to fill in the chinks in my memory..more later:D

****I havent been able to personally talk to his fellar as of yet , but his name is Clate Dolinger and he has a wealth of research that he's put into this image as I said it is the closeup of the ID pin that cinches the deal, as soon as I get up with him and get permission ect I'll post the whole speel! This was very exciting for him to ID his ancestors and finally restore their names...until then I did manage to get their names they are L to R:


Ephraim Blevins- Clate great great uncle
John R. Baldwin great great uncle
Andrew Z. Blevins- great great grandfather.

IMO You can see family resemblence between Ephraim (seated) and Andrew (standing third in line)

[61' reb]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

What type of knapsack is the guy in the middle wearing? The guy that is standing?

This has to be one of my favorite images though.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

Hi,

I think it is a Confederate single bag knapsack, although it might be a Federal Double-bag knapsack.

[OleMissRebel]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

****I havent been able to personally talk to his fellar as of yet , but his name is Clate Dolinger and he has a wealth of research that he's put into this image as I said it is the closeup of the ID pin that cinches the deal, as soon as I get up with him and get permission ect I'll post the whole speel! This was very exciting for him to ID his ancestors and finally restore their names...until then I did manage to get their names they are L to R:


Ephraim Blevins- Clate great great uncle
John R. Baldwin great great uncle
Andrew Z. Blevins- great great grandfather.

IMO You can see family resemblence between Ephraim (seated) and Andrew (standing third in line)

I'd love for these guys to be identified, but from a historian's point of view, I'd still have some concerns that this guy might just be trying to give his ancestors that fought in the war some added significance by saying "my ancestors were the Gettysburg Prisoners"!

Does he have any proof beyond that ID pin?

[vamick]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

I'd love for these guys to be identified, but from a historian's point of view, I'd still have some concerns that this guy might just be trying to give his ancestors that fought in the war some added significance by saying "my ancestors were the Gettysburg Prisoners"!

Does he have any proof beyond that ID pin?

I hear ya! Ive seen his 'proof' and as I said it looked good, (it was a featured exhibt at a local museum) however, I'd like to go over it myself in detail aswell since I didnt have long to look at it when I encountered him, he's a coupla counties away from me and Im trying to get up with him so I can post his stuff in the meanwhile heres their burial sites:

Ephraim buried at Kononrock in Washington Co. Va- in 37th NC Co K

John buried in Latham NC Ashe Co. in 50th Va Co B

Andrew buried at Chilihowie, Va in Smyth Co. in 30th NC

now..I can tell ya that after a real quick net search that all three companies were at Gettysburg of the three names the only one I can find appearing on his roster is John Balwin ( middle standing) and he was captured at Gbrug:

BALDWIN, JOHN R., 42, Laborer, 1860 GCC HH#1098, Co. D, 50th VA Inf., Enl. 6/4/61 at Forks of Wilson Creek. Taken POW at Gettysburg, sent to Point Lookout, exchanged on 2/18/65.

thats a quick search, as I said his 'stuff' looked to be in greater order than this quickie look I just did but I'd like to give it a longer looksee myself...as soon as I can catch em!

[vamick]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

I hear ya! Ive seen his 'proof' and as I said it looked good, (it was a featured exhibt at a local museum) however, I'd like to go over it myself in detail aswell since I didnt have long to look at it when I encountered him, he's a coupla counties away from me and Im trying to get up with him so I can post his stuff in the meanwhile heres their burial sites:

Ephraim buried at Kononrock in Washington Co. Va- in 37th NC Co K

John buried in Latham NC Ashe Co. in 50th Va Co B

Andrew buried at Chilihowie, Va in Smyth Co. in 30th NC

now..I can tell ya that after a real quick net search that all three companies were at Gettysburg of the three names the only one I can find appearing on his roster is John Balwin ( middle standing) and he was captured at Gbrug:

BALDWIN, JOHN R., 42, Laborer, 1860 GCC HH#1098, Co. D, 50th VA Inf., Enl. 6/4/61 at Forks of Wilson Creek. Taken POW at Gettysburg, sent to Point Lookout, exchanged on 2/18/65.

thats a quick search, as I said his 'stuff' looked to be in greater order than this quickie look I just did but I'd like to give it a longer looksee myself...as soon as I can catch em!

...also....

BLEVINS, EPHRAIM: Co. K, 37th NC Inf. Res. of Ashe Co., NC or Smyth Co., VA, Enl. in Iredell Co., NC on 8/15/62, age 18. Taken POW at Gettysburg, PA on 7/3/63, held at Fort Delaware, until released on oath on 6/19/65....he'd be the first man squating in the pictrure looks '18ish'

[OleMissRebel]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

...also....

BLEVINS, EPHRAIM: Co. K, 37th NC Inf. Res. of Ashe Co., NC or Smyth Co., VA, Enl. in Iredell Co., NC on 8/15/62, age 18. Taken POW at Gettysburg, PA on 7/3/63, held at Fort Delaware, until released on oath on 6/19/65....he'd be the first man squating in the pictrure looks '18ish'

I've often told people that I think those guys, at least the two on the left, are probably a good deal younger than they look. A combination of dirt, facial hair, and just plain ole "hard living", makes them look older than they really were.

[OldState]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

According to the new book, "Historic Photos of Gettysburg" by John S. Salmon, the photographers notes on the back of the original photo at the LOC state that the men are from the 8th Louisiana. The are identified as (from left to right) 1) unidentified 2)Pvt Winburn I. Chafin 3)Pvt WH Oliver. Oliver was believed to hold the rank of Lt. at Gettysburg which would explain the darker pants (officer). I also looked at that picture for years before I realised "Mr. Oliver" is wearing two shirts. I am also of the opinion that some of their gear was given to them by their captors.

Denis Branca

[OldState]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

According to the new book of "Historic Photos of Gettysburg", two of the three men were identified by the photographer. On the back of the original photo at the L.O.C. the men are named as follows from left to right; unidentified, Pvt Winburn I Chafin, and Pvt WH Oliver. Oliver is listed on the parks data base as a LT which would explain the dark pants(navy blue?) and the frock. The photographer listed the men as being from the 8th LA.


I tried to post last night but it didn't stick.

Denis Branca

[markj]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

According to the new book of "Historic Photos of Gettysburg", two of the three men were identified by the photographer. On the back of the original photo at the L.O.C. the men are named as follows from left to right; unidentified, Pvt Winburn I Chafin, and Pvt WH Oliver. Oliver is listed on the parks data base as a LT which would explain the dark pants(navy blue?) and the frock. The photographer listed the men as being from the 8th LA.


I tried to post last night but it didn't stick.

Denis Branca

Haven't read the book, but will try to do so. However, the author's seeming assertion that nobody, including none other than William Frassanito, an Army-trained photo intelligence analyst, has had the smarts over the past 140 years to examine the back of this image for a possible ID...is nothing short of ridiculous. This image is surely one of the single most famous photographs of the war and has been the source of endless speculation by researchers and reenactors alike. If there was an ID on the back of the photo, shouldn't we think it would have been published ages ago?

Yours, &c.,

Mark Jaeger

[Csayankee]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

Good point, as well as the assumption of darker pants means Officer.

[markj]

Not having read the aforementioned work, I can't make any specific evaluations of claims made in it. However, I queried a very well-known and respected archivist, who is familiar with the LoC images, about the alleged ID of the prisoner photograph and here is his response:


LC has the original negative [of this image], as a stereo; If you look at their web site you’ll see one half is damaged. I thought for years that meant it had been broken (it happened to at least one, I suspect), but no, the good copy you get is from the undamaged half of the stereo. Now, they MAY also have albumin copies, but what’s important is the negative.


The Museum of the Confederacy has Hirst Milhollen’s collection. Milhollen was Curator of Photographs at LC in the 1950’s-60’s and he made a practice of making modern 8 X 10’s of almost all their Civil War photographs from the original negatives. For that reason, the clarity of the prints in his collection is absolutely amazing. Had he put any identification with the three prisoners, I would certainly remember it. Not only did he not do so, but he never published the photo with any identification; always just as prisoners. If Milhollen didn’t have it, and, as was noted, if Frassanito didn’t find it, and most of all, if it wasn’t in Brady’s or Gardner’s catalogs (and it wasn’t), I would very seriously doubt the attribution.

Does the author of the Gettysburg book provide any specific and detailed accounting of how he supposedly was able to ID these individuals by name and unit? If so, I'd be interested to know. I simply can't see how multiple researchers could have overlooked any attached identification of the men in the photographs since it would have answered a minor mystery and have been quickly mentioned in various Civil War magazines and books.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

Good point, as well as the assumption of darker pants means Officer.

How so??

Paul B.

[yankeecav]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

Just to throw this in there the man in the center stands 5 feet 10 inches. I figured this out by, first knowing that my canteen is 71/2 inches from top to bottom then reducing this by one inch because of the tilt and this leaves it at 61/2 inches. In the picture the canteen is 3/8 of an inch, so knowing this in takes 10 stacked canteens to equal the mans height so 10 times 61/2 equals 62.5 the divided by 12 equals 5.2. But the decimal is based on 10 so you have to set up a proportion and you will get 5 ft. 10 inches. Using this same process the man on the right is 5 feet 5 inches tall. This is supported because the man on the right is shorter than the center man.

A valiant effort but the math doesn't add up. 2/10 x 12in=2.4in not 10". Also 62.5 inches is 5' 2.5".

To be 5'10" he would have to be 70" tall, 5ft x 12in/ft=60 then add the 10in. to get 70in.

[Abrams]

Re: Closeups of the three Gettysburg prisoners:

I have to make an observation also. Sorry to nitpick.

10 x 6 1/2" equals 65", not 62.5. So that would mean the gentleman that measured 10 canteens in height would be 65" tall or 5' 5".

Also, you do not have to be concerned about the decimal base of 10, versus the 12" to a foot. You are measuring it in inches, so once you divide 12 into it, anything left over is simply the number of inches left over the nearest foot. having him measure exactly 10 canteens was convenient. If he would have measured 10 and 1/3 canteens, the math would get harder, heh.

(for the record, 10 and 1/3 canteens would equal @ 5' 7-1/6"---or we would measure him at 5' 7-3/16" with a common tape.)

I measure kitchens for a living, and inches are my life, lol ;)