RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

[Enfilade]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Tom,

You're talking about the Green jacket. He was a member of the 47th NCT and they were stationed in Eastern NC prior to being called up to help with Lee's invasion and Gettysburg campaign. The 47th NCT had 2 companies from Nash County(East of Raleigh and another I believe another at least from Wake County(Raleigh). So being stationed at Camp Mangum(Raleigh) and mainly used in Eastern NC before heading to Gettysburg(where he was wearing that jacket), showing the provenance of that jacket to Raleigh area, anybody could have made it. That said, I know Jensen says it was a "tailor" who made the jacket. But to me, a tailor made many NC Depot jackets. This one just happens to have trim. Not to discount your argument. I understand where you are coming from. I just have a slightly different opinion.

Thanks for reminding me of the Green jacket though.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles

http://www.northstaterifles.com

[Secesh]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Thanks for the info Mark! Yes, it is the Green jacket. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual truth to this gent's jacket lies somewhere between both our opinions. Best regards!

[Sweatshop Tailor]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

I thought it might be interesting to revive this thread a bit with the following image (see link below, as a 'returning member' I think I do not yet have the right to post attachments...):

http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic/c000k0VdexRXmewaJbwTAvwONhitZUZoUV6*v4xQp5Fd3Ig=_l.jpg

This sixth plate ambrotype from my collection shows a sergeant in an RD II model jacket with two tailored exterior pockets. In pose and style (including the table and tablecloth) the image was likely to have been taken in the Rees gallery of Richmond. This thus stands to be either an issued jacket or a 'tailors copy' from very close to the depot source.

KC MacDonald
Founder Member Lazy Jacks Mess

[Prodical Reb]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

I own a NC state coat and an RDII, both made by Ben Tart. I have added a breast pocket to each after the jackets were made. The mod was pretty simple. One could do it while having some down time in camp or in winter quarters. It is very functional! Soldiers like pockets too. Many were added after the fact, sometimes 2 or 3 were added. Extra material can be found by cutting the facing on the inside of the coat. It would never be missed from there. The NC state coats came with a generous facing on the inside. Most often I see a slit pocket or 2 added w/o a welt when I look at Greg Mast's Book "NC state Troops and Volunteers"

Just as equipment was scavenged from the litter of the battlefield why not material from a jacket no longer needed by the poor, bloated fellow there after it was over. This may seem ghoulish but much worse occured. (eg. stealing rings, watches, money, boots, hats, etc from the dead)

[Sweatshop Tailor]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

While I certainly agree that many jacket pockets were likely in-camp modifications by the soldier in question or by the 'mess tailor,' I believe these would probably more likely be straightforward things like slash pockets rather than faced pockets. Admittedly the material for the facing probably could have been found somewhere on the jacket, but faced pockets as shown on some images (including the one of the first sergeant that I posted a link to) look to have been 'tailored'.

KC MacDonald
Founder Member Lazy Jacks Mess

[Prodical Reb]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Here is a picture of me wearing my Ben Tart RDII. This was taken this past weekend in front of Bennett Place cabin in Durham, NC. This is where Joe Johnston surrendered the remaining CS forces after Lee's surrender at Appomattox.

This was the 2nd pocket I did. I can take some pics of my NC state coat if you would like. I would have to disagree and say it doesn't take a "tailor" to make one look nice.

[Sweatshop Tailor]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Fair enough, but this is more the sort of thing I think of as a field modified pocket:

http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic/c000k0VdexRXmewaJbwTAvwONkVzn6ML3jWov4xQp5Fd3Ig=_l.jpg

It has a facing - a small one - which may have come from the removed shoulder straps (!). The image, notionally of an RDII, comes from Military Images XXIV, no.6, May/June 2003.

To me, the line and finish of the pockets in the first sergeant image I posted are more likely the result of a custom tailored or special depot made product.

All the Best,
KC MacDonald
Founder Member Lazy Jacks Mess

[Prodical Reb]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

While I certainly agree that many jacket pockets were likely in-camp modifications by the soldier in question or by the 'mess tailor,' I believe these would probably more likely be straightforward things like slash pockets rather than faced pockets. Admittedly the material for the facing probably could have been found somewhere on the jacket, but faced pockets as shown on some images (including the one of the first sergeant that I posted a link to) look to have been 'tailored'.

KC MacDonald
Founder Member Lazy Jacks Mess

Fair enough, but this is more the sort of thing I think of as a field modified pocket:

http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic/c000k0VdexRXmewaJbwTAvwONkVzn6ML3jWov4xQp5Fd3Ig=_l.jpg

It has a facing - a small one - which may have come from the removed shoulder straps (!). The image, notionally of an RDII, comes from Military Images XXIV, no.6, May/June 2003.

To me, the line and finish of the pockets in the first sergeant image I posted are more likely the result of a custom tailored or special depot made product.

All the Best,
KC MacDonald
Founder Member Lazy Jacks Mess

KC,
I think that we are saying some of the same things.

Facings come in all sizes depending on the amount of material available, (interior facings, waist tabs, shoulder straps, old jacket replaced by new issue) are all ways that material may be found. I sure that there are more ways to find material. Maybe the sleeves were to long or a pardnerswere to long and both benefit from this windfall. as far as custom tailoring, I custom tailored my own pockets as did many soldiers more so than professional tailors. Necessity is the mother of invention!

In the early days a wife or betrothed, sister, mother etc may have altered a uniform jaacket. maybe it happened during a furlough. Other soldiers wives often accompanied soldiers in the field as laundress and menders. I'm sure a pocket was well within her abilities. I could imagine many differnt ways it could have happened but other that an officer or awell off private, professional tailors were out of reach for most.

Private purchase jackets could be made to order after all, they used better material, custom fitted by a professional tailor, and could get them like you wanted from the get go, wit as many pockets as you wanted.

Show me some returns from depots where there doing options for units in the field. Branch trim, pockets, differnt styles, etc. The CS depots were to busy trying to make more clothes quicker or faster out of what ever they had on hand. They even imported ready made jackets from Europe. I just don't see the depots doing pockets. It adds to much time to the garment.

Now look closely at the first sgt pic you provided a link to. A pro would want it to be symetrical. Now possibly Top added his own button in the field. What does the trained eye look for when trying to distinguish a pocket facing has been done by a pro or just a slovenly soldier in camp? I don't know a tailor alive who would put a button on one pocket and not the other. The jacket would need a military appearance and just 1 button on 2 pockets isn't symetrical, is poor aethetics, and just looks bad. I would think that is is the result of a camp modification.

[Sweatshop Tailor]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Michael,
While you could be right regarding the pocket, I always thought he just had one pocket buttoned and the other one unbuttoned. The Lord knows when I wear a shirt or jacket with button pockets one or both are usually unbuttoned...

We both agree that most external pockets on jackets were field modifications. I would just like to keep the door open to the possibility that some jackets were actually initially made with such pockets - more probably by a tailor than by a depot to be sure.

All the Best,
KC

[Prodical Reb]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

KC,
I agree that it a possibility that private purchase (professional tailor) made jackets with pockets already on them, and exterior pockets on RD IIs were the result of field modifications. If there is evidence contradicting this let all of us see it! best of luck and God Bless!

[lukegilly13]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

I don't know where I got that notion...i'm looking for whatever it was I misremember or misunderstood. If I find it, i'll post it to clarify my confusion. I sort of hit this clothing thing wide open...got hooked and interested, read too much too fast, now things run together. Need to go back and re-read slower and more deliberately. I will check into that book! Thanks for the recommendation!

Thanks to another post I am reminded. I was refering to the "blanks" issued by the Richmond Clothing Bureau to be constructed by different folks. Is it possible that the jacket is one of those?

[Prodical Reb]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Women (mothers, wives, widows, sisters etc) of Richmond, VA signed for blanks and when assembled and returned they were inspected. If found satisfactory they were paid. If found lacking, they were given back to be corrected. There are accounts of women standing in line at the facility before daylight to get blanks. There only so many blanks issued everyday. If you didn't get any you had to find another way of earning money.