RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

[PaulJ]

Hi,
spotted this photo on Old South Antiques website:-

http://www.oldsouthantiques.com/os1384p1.htm

From the website:-
The Rebel ..... wears what appears to be a Richmond Depot jacket, but it has a front pocket. The front pocket rules out it being a Richmond Depot in the strict sense, but it is most likely a variant so I assume the gentleman is with the Army of Northern Virginia. The jacket is buttoned with standard Federal eagle buttons."

I wonder if any forum members have seen many other examples of what appear to be Richmond Depot jackets with exterior pockets? I realise there are variations of the RD in terms of button counts (8 or even 6 - see EOG). I always imagined that to be seamstresses etc short of buttons or under pressure to speed up production! Adding an outside pocket would take longer so I speculate that such things might be field modifications? Would campaigners here feel that an an outside pocket would be 'theoretically' advantageous and so explain why this gent may have felt the need to add one?

(I always thought the RD2 to be a flawed design - too many buttons, no exterior pockets, unnecessary epaulettes - that's another story...)

Regards.

[Suppelsa]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Paul,
This could be a commutation jacket.

[Slouch]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

I think we dismiss jackets to belonging to the "commutation period" far to quickly and easily. The armies had tailors in camp, and access to civilan tailors, especially during winter quarters. This could very well be a standard issue RD II that had the pocket added at the whim of the soldier.

[rbruno]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

The pocket on the coat looks like a Welt pocket which has an exterior welt to cover the opening and the pocket bag is sewn to the welt and the jacket. I would think this would be almost impossible or at least very difficult to sew if the jacket is already assemble and the pocket added later. If this was a patch pocket or even a slash style pocket, I could see this being add after assembly. Given the design of the pocket, I would guess that it was done at the time of sewing the coat. I am not saying it is not from the depot; I just think the pocket was put in while the jacket was being made.
Rob Bruno
1st MD Cav

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

The hardest part about adding a welt pocket post-manufacture would be getting material to match the fabric of the issue jacket. I think whether it was added post-manufacture would be easily told by looking at the lining... which we cannot do, unfortunately.

Just wondering...
How do we "know" that Richmond Depot didn't issue jackets with exterior pockets? Is there an absence of evidence or evidence of absence?

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

How do we "know" that Richmond Depot didn't issue jackets with exterior pockets? Is there an absence of evidence or evidence of absence?

Obviously, because it wasn't discussed in Mr. Jenson's fantastic article.

Realizing that there are literally hundreds of thousands of jackets that Mr. Jenson and the rest of us will never have the oppurtunity to see in person...we must consider ourselves fortunate that we do have as many original items today as we do...and that we are able to study the photographic evidence before, during and after the war. The photography of the period gives us a rare glimpse at some fantastic items, that we would otherwise not know of...take for example the elusive "Richmond Depot type I" jacket...of which no surviving original is known to exists, Mr. Jenson's classification of this very jacket is based solely on the study of original images, and records.

Paul B.

[PaulJ]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Hi,
I'll add another picture here which has been discussed on the forum for another reason (it's wooden buttons) - I'm not sure if it's my imagination but I thought I could see a horizontal slash pocket on the left breast. It could be a crease, but.....

Regards,

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Paul B.,
I kinda wondered if that was the case. County Cloth features a pic of a reproduction of an RD2 with an exterior welt pocket. While I am one to thump the lecturn with my fist at while speaking against the practice of basing reproductions off of reproductions, I must point out that Mr. Childs might likely have had evidence of an original upon which he based his reproduction. I am curious if this is the case.

Paul J.
Tough call. It could be either. On another note... It is interesting to note how closely the body of the jacket fits that fellow, while the collar appears to be quite loose. Great Pic!

Generally, I think its best to approach CS uniform items (and a variety of other issues) with an open mind. There seems to be a number of "Richmondesque" jackets in photographs featuring a welt pocket... ya never know!

[1stMaine]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Also,

To further muddy the waters, the Richmond Depot was also willing t take cusrom orders drom units of any size for clothing, these being paid for by the soldiers in cash. My favorite example is the red-trimmed jackets of the Washington Artillery made up as a special custom order for them in 1864. One of the surviving examples from that very order is on display at Manassas.

If there is eventually found to be a number of otherwise "stock" TD II's with outside welt pocket, it is entirely possible that these were either part of a custom order, or part of a design change brought upon by some perceived need. For example, early on in the Refular Army, it was thought that the newly-introduced percussion caps might best be carried in a jacket pocket, and this same idea was put forth by some Confederates as a way to cut back on leather use by eliminating the cap pouch.

I am not saying that this is the case, just floating other possibilities here.

Respects,

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Also,

To further muddy the waters, the Richmond Depot was also willing t take cusrom orders drom units of any size for clothing, these being paid for by the soldiers in cash. My favorite example is the red-trimmed jackets of the Washington Artillery made up as a special custom order for them in 1864. One of the surviving examples from that very order is on display at Manassas.

If there is eventually found to be a number of otherwise "stock" TD II's with outside welt pocket, it is entirely possible that these were either part of a custom order, or part of a design change brought upon by some perceived need. For example, early on in the Refular Army, it was thought that the newly-introduced percussion caps might best be carried in a jacket pocket, and this same idea was put forth by some Confederates as a way to cut back on leather use by eliminating the cap pouch.

I am not saying that this is the case, just floating other possibilities here.

Respects,

Tim,

Great Possibilities! Do you have any documentation to back-up the "custom" garment orders (especially with relation to the Washington Artillery)? or, Confederate Ideas about issueing jacket with breast pockets for carrying percussion caps?

Thanks,

Paul B.

[1stMaine]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Paul,

The info on the Washington Artillery jacket came directly from the staff at Manassas. I had enquired about the jacket and was told the story by whoever was the curator at the parl in, I believe, 1985 or so. They had documentaion of the custom order in their files, and if I can find i I will post it here.

Same with the use of pockets for percussion caps. Todd mentions the concept in his book on Military Equipage, but I also have some period comments somewhere if i can locate them. My filing system, at the moment, is a number of boxes and containers do to a lack of shelving at the moment. I hope to have that rectified by summer. :) sigh.....

respects,

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

My filing system, at the moment, is a number of boxes and containers do to a lack of shelving at the moment. I hope to have that rectified by summer. :) sigh.....

Tim,

I feel your pain...my filing system is spread between two dead computers, my current PC...and file boxes located in my parents house, my storage unit, and my hotel room...

You are a wealth of knowledge, and well respected...just looking for a little more clarification on your research.

Thanks!

Paul B.

(Who's anxiously awaiting whatever you may find over the next couple of months, with regards to this subject.)

[1stMaine]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Paul,

Comrade,

Regarding the use of jacket pockets for percussion caps, I gave this. More to come when I find it. He is talking about the pre-war jackets as from the Mexican War period, but adds also:

From: American Military Equipage, 1851-1872, by Frederick P. Todd; Published by Charles Scribner's Sons, NY, 1980.

PP 52.:

Outer pockets were sometimes introduced into one or the other side of the front, over the breast or abdomen, and ir is not uncommon to find two outer pockets in Confederate jackets. Originally a pocket in the lower right side had been intended to hold percussion caps, and it may well have served this purpose with Confederate Infantry.

Respects,

[Suppelsa]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

I think we dismiss jackets to belonging to the "commutation period" far to quickly and easily. The armies had tailors in camp, and access to civilan tailors, especially during winter quarters. This could very well be a standard issue RD II that had the pocket added at the whim of the soldier.

Possibly, the simple truth is that we can't know for sure.

[rbruno]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Tim,
I would love to see the documentation on the depot filling a custom order for the Washington Artillery. I thought the whole point of the depot system was to mass produce standard garments to outfit the troops. I have never heard of them doing anything custom ordered. I thought the Washington Artillery had all of their stuff produced by tailors so they would be one of the best dressed units in the Confederate army. If you have that documentation, that would sure change my understanding of the depot system.
Rob Bruno
1st MD Cav