RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

[1stMaine]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Rob,

The federal depots did exactly the same thing, being able to provide, for example, zouave uniforms, or modified chasseur hackets, etc, to entire regiments once a standard pattern and material samples were drafted and approved.

respects,

[lukegilly13]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

I've got to keep better records myself. I'm I remembering correctly that the RD would issue "jacket blanks" to be altered by the company seemstress or laundress? Is it possible that this is a richmond depot jacket issued w/o pocket and the seemstress who altered for this particular company added the pocket as personal preference? This would explain why the material matches...having altered 1000's of jackets from the same shipment, there is bound to be several trimmings of fabric laying around of jackets made from the same loom so to speak.

[coastaltrash]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Luke,
I have never seen a return from any of the Depots saying they issued blanks to be finished by a company seamstress or laundress. In fact, I've never seen company seamstress or laundress mentioned in clothing orders for that matter. I have seen reference to the garments being made by technically workers for the particular depot and issued as a finished product.

Pick up a copy of Confederate Industry, pretty good read but SLOW. I am hardly into the thing and I read pretty boring stuff most of the time.

Mike Wilkens,
I would not be so quick to dismiss that. I have seen images of men that fought in the Western armies, and ONLY the western army, wearing commutation jackets that some would say are RDII on first glance.

[lukegilly13]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

I don't know where I got that notion...i'm looking for whatever it was I misremember or misunderstood. If I find it, i'll post it to clarify my confusion. I sort of hit this clothing thing wide open...got hooked and interested, read too much too fast, now things run together. Need to go back and re-read slower and more deliberately. I will check into that book! Thanks for the recommendation!

[Slouch]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Luke,
Mike Wilkens,
I would not be so quick to dismiss that. I have seen images of men that fought in the Western armies, and ONLY the western army, wearing commutation jackets that some would say are RDII on first glance.

Not being able to inspect this particular jacket, we may never know for sure when and where it came from. But my point is that every time a jacket pops up on this forum that does not fit a perfect depot "mold" the "commutation" label gets thrown on it. It seems to be a popular buzz word these days and is taking on the definition of "I have no idea what this jacket is."

If I had to decide what this jacket was/is, I would guess it was an early type II RD . I make this assumption/guess based on what we already know about RD jackets from Jensen's research; that based on surviving examples and photographs, RD jackets may be organized into three general categories. Type I's were altered to simplify construction (trim, etc removed). Type II's gave way to type III's, again to simplify construction, and save a wee bit on material (shoulder straps and belt loops removed). It would make sense that early type II's could have had an outside pocket in the beginning, and it was taken out of the pattern as it took additional construction time.

This is pull right out of my be-hind, as I agree we may never know for sure.

[lukegilly13]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

I have found some method to my madness. I mis-remembered yesterday or maybe more accurately had my stories confused. Below are two quotes from Jenson both taken from his most cited article on confederate jackets:
“More important, there is compelling evidence that this basic pattern was copied by non-government manufacturers, with the result that jackets of very similar pattern existed from the same period which were clearly not Quartermaster products. 50”

"Although no example of the depot product of the Type I appears to have survived, an extremely intriguing jacket does exist that is probably a tailor's copy of it. Its construction details are not typical of those later produced by the depot and appear to be more typical of a civilian tailor than those resulting from the putting-out system used by the depot."

My above comment should have been...could this be a "copycat" seemstress who reflected personal taste on the depot pattern?

[lukegilly13]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Not being able to inspect this particular jacket, we may never know for sure when and where it came from. But my point is that every time a jacket pops up on this forum that does not fit a perfect depot "mold" the "commutation" label gets thrown on it. It seems to be a popular buzz word these days and is taking on the definition of "I have no idea what this jacket is."

If this soldier purchased the jacket from a "non government manufactuer" with money alloted to him for a uniform...then it would be commutation period? You are correct, we can never be absolutely sure on ANY jacket. We can merely speculate unless we have records.....:cry_smile still mad over the burning of richmond

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

If this soldier purchased the jacket from a "non government manufactuer" with money alloted to him for a uniform...then it would be commutation period? You are correct, we can never be absolutely sure on ANY jacket. We can merely speculate unless we have records.....:cry_smile still mad over the burning of richmond

In the simplest terms the "Commutation Period" simply denotes a period of time before a central Clothing Bureau (Richmond) began. Some technicalities involved, as to whether this is indicative of all uniforms made during the period or just those officially re-imbursed by the govt.

So, no...just because a soldier purchased his uniform (out of a uniform stipend) would not equate to a Commutation Uniform. The Commutation Period is generally accepted as having ended sometime in 1862 with the start of the centralized Richmond Clothing Bureau.

The term Commutation is indeed overused, and as noted earlier by others...it seems many people are apt to make ascertations that any non-typical jacket is a "Commutations"...this just isn't so.

Thoughts on the funky "Richmond-esque" jacket with the pocket that it was probably issued that way, there are several images of this type configuration out there...which would lead me to believe (combined with the fact that this welted pocket can be difficult to "field modify/add"), that some firm was manufacturing these jackets to a certain pattern/specification.

Like most "big-cities" Richmond has been plagued by not one fire, but many...what the fires of April 1865 didn't destroy, certainly the fires that followed finished off many vital pieces of the city's history and our understanding of the war in Richmond.

Paul B.

[rbruno]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

I like using the term "private purchase" after the official commutation period ended. Men could certainly if they had the money and the access to a tailor/seamstress have a jacket made for them with a variety of variations. The most common pattern in and around Richmond would be the ones that the depot was sending out to have assembled. So, if that is what a seamstress/tailor knew how to make, they would follow the same pattern for a private purchase jacket and then they could add whatever they wanted or had, pockets, trim, etc., but the jacket would still have the two piece sleeve, 6 piece body. If the depots made custom garments as this thread is suggesting, that kind of changes what has been excepted in this hobby for jackets. If that is the case, we can practically call anything a depot jacket. Maybe I am going to extremes here.
Rob Bruno
1st MD Cav

[Secesh]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Based upon the one dimensional evidence of the image, I think the best guess we can render is that it's either an RD II with a pocket, or a tailor's copy.....

[Enfilade]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

I like using the term "private purchase" after the official commutation period ended. Men could certainly if they had the money and the access to a tailor/seamstress have a jacket made for them with a variety of variations.
Rob Bruno
1st MD Cav

If you take into account the lack of material as the War goes on, the plight of civilians with shortages of a greater magnitude, and the lack of furloughs granted, not to mention the accounts of the threadbare and the lack of obtainable cloth to Quartermasters and agents of Richmond and each individual State, I would have say that a "private purchase" jacket made similarly to the Army's standard, would be a huge stretch. Just my humble opinion.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles

http://www.northstaterifles.com

[Secesh]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Not so much a stretch...look at the Kent & Payne jacket, or the kersey RDI "copy" in Gettysburg's collection....There is nothing in this image which says "Mid or Late War". Obviously someone had enough material to make this jacket the soldier is wearing....In "Letters to Amanda, The Letters of Marion Hill Fitzpatrick", who served in a Georgia Infantry Regiment, it's made clear that his wife continued to supply him with vests, trowsers, shirts, underdrawers, and frock coats up thru 1864, when he finally drew a jacket and trowsers, on the Petersburg front, from the Quartermaster so that she could save her cloth for their kid's clothes...Thanks.

[Jimmayo]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Luke,


Pick up a copy of Confederate Industry, pretty good read but SLOW. I am hardly into the thing and I read pretty boring stuff most of the time.

I would also like to recomend reading the above book if you want to discuss the Richmond or any other depot's supply problems. As Patrick stated, it is a slow read but there are bits of information which help explain the supply method/problems and fixes.

[Enfilade]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

Not so much a stretch...look at the Kent & Payne jacket, or the kersey RDI "copy" in Gettysburg's collection....There is nothing in this image which says "Mid or Late War". Obviously someone had enough material to make this jacket the soldier is wearing....In "Letters to Amanda, The Letters of Marion Hill Fitzpatrick", who served in a Georgia Infantry Regiment, it's made clear that his wife continued to supply him with vests, trowsers, shirts, underdrawers, and frock coats up thru 1864, when he finally drew a jacket and trowsers, on the Petersburg front, from the Quartermaster so that she could save her cloth for their kid's clothes...Thanks.

I agree, nothing says "mid-to-late war", and I hate that quote as well. As most images are of '61-'62 time frames.

I am aware of the Kent & Payne jacket, etc,. But what about "THIS" jacket?

Is this a Type 2? I don't know. Type 2's made in Early 1862. right?

But what I'm saying is that a Type 2 would not be the style jacket that a guy would wear home so a Momma, or town tailor, or anyone else would have copied.

It actually would have been easier to copy a Militia Standards since the locals made them and not the Army's Quartermaster System. Frocks or Type 1's, etc. A Momma making her son clothing? Sure. A Momma copying a Type 2 pattern? Yeah, I think that's a stretch.

JMHO.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles

http://www.northstaterifles.com

[Secesh]

Re: RD2 Jacket with exterior pocket?

No, it was probably not made at home, but the RD II style and cut certainly would not have been unknown to the tailors in the major cities and towns where the troops moving thru and garrisoning those places were stationed, and it's probably a pretty accurate guess that some of them would have attempted to emulate that cut and style, not to exacting standards but certainly close enough. As I previosly said, and Jensen touches upon it, there are jackets that resmble Type 1 & Type 2's in existence that at first glance could be mistaken for them, but upon closer inspection are actually tailor-made copies. A perfect example of this is the Type 1 copy in the Gettysburg collection, worn in the battle by a North Carolinian sergeant (his name and unit escape me but are mentioned in Jensen's article) and was KIA there. With the exception of a few slight variances it's a dead ringer for an RD1.....