Confederate Musketoon

[riverratmess]

I'm the director of the New England Civil War Museum in Rockville, CT. I am in the process of re-indentifying a number of items in our collection that have not been properly labeled or id'ed.

We have this Confederate musketoon and all I know about it is that it was supposedly carried by a member of J.E.B. Stuart's cavalry. Anyone seen one like this before?

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

Re: Confederate Musketoon

I'm no expert but it looks like a cut down Belgin rifle.

[brown]

Re: Confederate Musketoon

I'm no expert, but it certainly looks European. Esp. the hammer reminds me of the Austrian tubelocks. Cheek piece, interesting "sling swivel" and side plate for the lock screws, and the distinctive trigger guard should help.
Maybe Lee White can look at Claude Fuller's cataloged piece #666, the Austrian carbine, and tell us if he sees any relationship.

How many holes are filled-in under and in front of the bolster from the conversion? Is there a date/partial date on the lock or are my eyes playing tricks on me (and how many and what numerals are they? you know what I'm thinking if it is just "84x" or "85x"). Is there a mark on the lock behind the hammer?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Confederate Musketoon

Hallo!

Without having the gun in hand...

It appears to be an Austrian M1842 (Kammer-Karabiner) carbine in .71 (rifle).
These were originally tube-lock, but were modernized and converted to percussion cap after 1854. They are sometimes refered to as "Fruewirth" carbines after two Austrian gun-makers, Johann and Ferdinand.

U.S. and C.S. agents bought numbers of these in Europe.
Some were also in a batch of 10,000-some of six types that George Schuyler was able to buy in 1861 in Bohemia that arrived in 1862 and were issued to Fremont's Western command.

Of course, due to changes in the World, they can be "Austrian" with no ACW association too. ;) :)

Curt

Following Austrian custom, the lockplate stamp "857" is the last three digits of the year of manufacture- 1857.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Confederate Musketoon

It appears to be a 1842 Ausrtian tube lock Cav carbine converted to percussion cap. You can see an 1842 Ausrtian tube lock musket on pg 35 of EoG Union book. As to who done the converting I would say it was done in Austria and imported to the Confederacy via a blockade runner.

[brown]

Re: Confederate Musketoon

Both sides bought in Austria, but does anyone have the numbers of how each side did in their Austrian purchases? I can't pull it up at the moment, but I seem to remember larger numbers heading north.

[brown]

This number does not include musketoon, or even tubelocks/conversions/etc, but according to Joe Bilby, "Yankee and Rebel buyers eagerly snapped up Lorenz-style rifle-muskets; the Union recorded purchases of 226, 924 and the Confederacy bought as many as 100,000. "
That may or may not inform an discussion on likelyhood of CS use of this piece b/c the numbers do not cover all Austrian weapons or the specific pieces in question, nor does it preclude CS use of battlefield pick-up or otherwise captured US purchased Austrian weapons.

The same article addresses the tubelocks in small measure, if such a topic is of interest, near the bottom of the article.

And Mr Bilby's article "The Lorenz" is worth a read, anyhow: http://www.washingtonbluerifles.com/bilbylorenz.htm

[brown]

Re: Confederate Musketoon

Do we have a winner in the M1850 Austrian carbine, of which 10,000 were purchased for the US Army by Schuyler? check out the first entry on page 90. http://books.google.com/books?id=QK3...esult#PPA90,M1

Is there any rifling?
Even the conversion in this picture is the same, the hammer the same, the trigger guard.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Confederate Musketoon

Hallo!

Ahem, ahem....
"M1850" carbine? ;) :)

Here are a few pics of an Austrian M1842 carbine in pitted condition:







Schuyler acquired 10,051 foreign carbines of six types for $66,193,00.

I would have to go through the Huse referecnes, as off the top of my head I remember Huse securing M1854 "Lorenz" rifles. But there was some negotiating between Boker and the Fruewirths.

Curt

[brown]

Re: Confederate Musketoon

Curt,
Could these titles be the difference between modern references? They look alike to me. Does the one you posted have the filled holes from the conversion to percussion?

[Citizen_Soldier]

Re: Confederate Musketoon

Greetings,
A number of Austrian tube-locks were imported by Fremont into the western theater of operations in the autumn of 1861, some of which were issued with the tube lock ignition still in place. I'm away from files but I think the Cinncinatti depot converted many of these to percussion along with rifling them. More can be found in Edward's book on Civil War guns...there's a ton of material in there on Austrians....even though it's a somewhat dated source.

Darrek Orwig

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Confederate Musketoon

Hallo!

Herr Lindsay...

IMHO... what I think might be happening is that some authors look at a stamped date on a gun and make that a model year. A parallel would be say a contract M1861 being made in 1864 being referred to as a "M1864" Springfield.
Reenactors do it too. I sometimes see M1842's being sold as M1847's."

I think you are thinking of conversions or alterations from flintlock to caplock, where there are the lockplate holes for the former frizzen spring or remnant of the pan.

Curt

[riverratmess]

Re: Austrian Carbine

First off, thank you everyone for all your help.

On the lockplate, its stamped 852.
There's what also appears to be a maker's mark on it which resembles a double headed eagle with a crown on top of it.

On the barrel nearest the hammer it's stamped,
5. E.
69.

It's also definetly rifled. The rifling seems to be a lot more distinct then other originals I've seen.

In regards to it being an 1842 Austrian tube lock Cav carbine converted to percussion cap. It does bear a striking resemblance except this one doesn't have any brass on it.


I think when I re-display it I'm taking off the "Used by Confederate cavalry" and just put what it is. I have no documentation to back that claim up whatsoever. Its a shame past directors didn't put it through the ringer like I am.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Confederate Musketoon

Hallo!

If I recall correctly without looking it up.. I believe the M1842 carbines were all iron mounted, and the 14.5 inch barrels were "multi-groove" rifling of the Delvigne system with 12 grooves.

Initially they had no provision for mounting a ramrod, that being carried separately. However as with the images I posted, ramrods were sometimes retro-fitted.

Curt

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Confederate Musketoon

All the ones I have seen are all iron mounted, some with very distinct rifling as previously mentioned. I have attached an image that somewhat outlines this.

In regards to the conversion, I have also seen these with the "Belgian" or cone converstion as well, with the hammer designed for such.

John Walsh