Mississippi Rifle bayonets

[adamandnicole]

I know that repro. bayonets aren't great, but does anyone know a source for a decent M 1841 sword bayonet. I searched the old threads, but couldn't find anything.

Adam Dickerson

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

I purchased mine from Lodgewood Mfg. years ago; it seems that they're being produced regularly again and offered with substandard leather carriage by many mainstream sutlers, however Mr. Zimmerman did a phenomenal job in defarbing my Mississippi AND the bayonet. Send both simultaneously, as he needs the bayonet in hand in order to mount the lug properly on the barrel.

It was an expensive defarb, but well worth it.

Nick Duvall, if I'm not mistaken, is able to produce replacement scabbards and frogs, too.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

Only way to get a good sabre bayonet for a M-1841 is to buy an original and hope it fits. About 6 or 7 years ago I went through what you are and never could get it right. The repro bayonets sold by Dixie or another company whose name I cannot remember are about a pound over what an original weighs. The blades are thicker and wider than an original. You can notice it right off. The latch for locking the bayonet on the lug is a POS and everytime I attached the bayonet I had to double check the latch to see if it caught. All these problems turned me off to the idea of a bayonet. Not to mention lugging all that weight around. You really need a riflemans support rig.

I have a friend who used a zouve bayonet that is much lighter and easier to find but bottom line is that is not the correct bayonet and also takes a different barrel lug.

The bayonet lug adapter that Dixie sells are also worthless. The welds are very poor and the lug breaks off quite often.

If you are a member of the blue man group, get a M42 bayonet, have the end of your barrel turned to fit the socket and have a stud welded in place for locking the bayonet. After all, it was one of many modifications to M-184s and was a NY mod. I can't remember if any modifications were made to the front band to include a sight. Maybe someone else on the forum has more info on this mod than I have given if you are interested.

If you are CS, go without.

[mslaird]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

The bayonet that the majority of the retailers sell is a 1855 rifle bayonet that is fairly serviceable and is of a type that was used a bit on the 1841 when it was converted. The repro is made by Windlass Steelcrafts and is really not a bad repro, all things considered. I do agree with Mr. Mayo that the mounting rings are a bit of a pain. Mine took a bit of Dremel work and by the grace of the almighty, I was able to get it fitted the first time around with very little difficulty. The Zouave bayonet offered by the same folks has the proper blade shape, although it is nowhere near long enough, and it does have a similar enough grip/guard shape to some of the original Mississppi bayonets that I have compared them to. The Zouave bayonet is cheaper and may require a litte bit of additional fitting. Those are the best that are available for the time being. I have often wondered if it would work to get the grip from a Zouave or a repro 55 bayonet and pop the pins, then swap the blade out for the blade from an Enfield rifle bayonet. I believe that would give the best approximate as far as blade shape, length, composition and look to the original. As of yet, I have not found myself with the money to spare to buy one of each to try this grand experiment yet but when I can, I will attempt it.

[adamandnicole]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

Thanks for the replies, it looks like I'll have my work cut out for me.

Adam Dickerson

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

Hi All,

Aquireing , modifying, or Defarbing a sword bayonet for a Mississippi can be a trying , but fun experience. I had a silmmilar situation with my .54 Cal Miss for a CS AoT impression

After looking at as many originals CS sword bayonet examples as I could. I finally picked one that would be good to work on .

Basically it is a copy of a Boyle Gamble and McFee Sword Bayonet. I purchased a good copy of a sword bayonet that was simmilar in weight and blade style. Disasembled it, and re shaped the handle & hilt by hand fileing it to the desired dimentions and shape of the original, finishing and pollishing the work.

I then re ground the fuller to be unstopped, and hand pollished. Once re assembling the bayionet I drew up a set of plans for the Boyle Gamble & McFee adapter that slides on to the barrel of the rifle. It is held in place by a set screw. My father who is a is a master machinist and tool designer machined the brass to the given dimentions. of the drawings taken from the original and I hand filed , finished , drilled and threaded the boss for the set screw. This was easier for me to do than to have a master made and then have one cast as per the originals mode of manufacture.

All in all the project took a about 6 months to complete in my spare time. It came out pretty good . I also made a scabbard for it bsased off of a known Georgia Armoury type scabbard with tin tip.

I have often thought about making and selling the adapters, but have not been sure if there is enough of a market for them

I will see about posting pictures.

All the best

Don S

[mslaird]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

Mr. Smith,

I would love to see the pictures of your work. A pard and I were trying to figure out how to make a more authentic looking Mississippi bayonet and we would both love to have a look at how you worked yours up. If you do ever decide to start making them a regular part of your wonderful lineup of goods, sign me up for one. Thanks again.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

Hallo!

When the M1841 were altered for the M1842 bayonet, the muzzles were slightly turned, and the mounting stud was added under the barrel. That eliminated the brass M1841 blade front sight, so it was replaced with a
M1855 front sight/bayonet mount.

Bayonets for the 1850's M1841 alterations are a problem.

Three sabre bayonets were used.
The most common (some 10,286 made between 1855 and 1857) is a version of the M1855 Rifle saber bayonet, but the blade has less curve and is 27 1/4 overall with a 22 1/2 inch blade versus the 26 1/2 and 21 3/4 of the M1855.

The second most common was a variation of the M1855, but made by E. Remington, Ames, Collins & Company, and maybe Harpers Ferry as well. It is not the M1863 Contract Rifle (zouave) bayonet, but was the longest of the U.S. regulation bayonets with an overall length of 30 3/8 inches and a blade length of 25 1/2 inches.

And the third type, was the 1,646 made in 1855 for the Benton screw rear sight and the Snell Patent type sword/sabre bayonet. It had a double ring system the had a locking pin on the front loop that snapped into two milled slots at the muzzle of the barrel.

IMHO, the "best" we can do is to try to "bastardize" something that will pass for one of the three Federal versions, OR some of the Confederate versions.

The problem is that there are no repro's "worthy" of the name. Legendary Arms offers an Indian "Snell Pattern" bayonet whose blade might could be remounted to a Indian M1855 sword/sabre bayonet hilt.

I would have to look at the M1841 bayonet and the Enfield P1856 sword bayonet closely, but off the top of my head, I think there is too much "sway" or "curve" in the Enfield, and the fuller is different, to modify an Enfield blade into an M1841 blade?

I would discount the "Zouave" sword bayonet as the 24 3/4 overall length and the 20 inch blade, is too small and straight compared to the M1841, to modify.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[mslaird]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

Thanks for the information Curt. I took a look at the Legendary Arms webpage and thier Snell bayonet appears to be the Windlass Steelcrafts 1855 with the adapter ring stuck in the groove on the grip. I wholeheartedly agree with you, the Enfield has too much sway to the blade but it was the closest that I could find that had the proper length and somewhat proper shape compared to the Remington/U.S. Arsenal bayonets. We were tossing around the idea of trying to pattern an original 41 bayonet and have someone make a blade for us but that idea is still on the drawing board pending finding an original that is in the kind of shape that we would be willing to take it apart, though I believe we have found someone who would produce the blade as long as we have a pattern. Thanks again, Curt as always I enjoy getting your input before I make decisions and waste money.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

Hallo!

Correct...

IMHO, the Legendary Arms listing is "misrepresentation" as it is just their
"M1855" sabre bayonet with an alteration type locking ring added.
It is NOT a true Snell Pattern bayonet (TYpe 1).





Curt

[adamandnicole]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

It seems from all of these responses that there is not one dealer that sells a better repro than another..too bad. I take it that there is only one company currently making the repros that all of the dealers are peddling.

Adam Dickerson

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

Hallo!

"I take it that there is only one company currently making the repros that all of the dealers are peddling."

No...
The quality or better said lack of quality of Indian and Pakistani imports typically vary according to a number of factors:

1. Desired selling price by the U.S.importer
2. What shop they were made at

Even among the same importer such as say "Legendary Arms," I have seen a range of "quality" (or lack of quality) on a sliding scale over time.
IMHO, when it comes to Indian and Pakistani sword and bayonet imports, I have seen much variation in the level of detail in sand castings, molded in "acid etching," blade shape/length/width, etc., etc.

So, one is shopping and searching/selecting to try to get the Best of the Worst rather than the Middle of the Worst, or Worst of the Worst.
For example, I was looking at so-called M1841 sword batonets that blades that looked more like my lawnmower blade being a straight, unfullered,
un-tapered pointed, parallel sided, flat bar of untempered steel.

Curt

(I am not necessarily "knocking" Indian, Pakistani, or Chinese imports. They can do excellent work, and actually copy original garments, gear, and firearms. But that level of workmanship and craftsmanship is NOT what many if not all U.S. importers want as they want "cheaper" goods to make more profit on selling to the segment of the various historical reenacting hobbies of any era looking for lowest cost alternatives that are "good enough.")

[mslaird]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

Excellent picture and technical drawing of the Snell. That is the best look I have had at one online. You wouldn't by chance have technical drawings of the Remington bayonet for the 1841s would you. If I can get a pattern, I can have a blade made. The rest is simply a matter of filing down a grop as Mr. Smith has done. Thanks again, Curt.

[Ian M.]

Re: Mississippi Rifle bayonets

I'm looking for just the frog (Y-shaped belt loops and horizontal slit with tongue to mount scabbard) and am coming up completely dry (Duvall doesn't seem to have).