canteens

[lukegilly13]

I've researched, i've read, i've looked at image upon image upon image. To me, it's just very hard to tell exactly what they are carrying. Does anyone have a good solid source of types of canteens issued or canteens used by ANV? Most images I see are variations of drums. Was this widely issued or was it the most practical and therefore desired? Also, does anyone have a source on dating the tin drum or will they work for all theaters from '61 - '65? I'm looking into purchasing a good confederate canteen and was looking at Orchard Hill's tin drum and they carry wax lined and "hot dipped". So, finally, is the beeswax lining a reenactorism to prevent rustwater or is this a period practice (also were originals "hot dipped"or could we ever know)?

[Jimmayo]

Re: canteens

This should get you started.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/cscanteen.html

Usually whatever canteen the Union was carrying, the CS soldier ended up carrying the same thing or what the CS quartermaster was providing.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/uscanteen.html

[tenfed1861]

Re: canteens

A soldier in the ANV said that a vetern carries a Federal canteen while recruits carry CS.I do not know the source,but that also coulf help you a little.
Federal canteens were usually of better quality then the CS canteens.Because of that,a lot of Confederate would try to supplament their poorer quality by Federal gear.So if need be,an 1858 canteen with jean cover or simply no cover would work well.

[lukegilly13]

Re: canteens

Federal canteens were usually of better quality then the CS canteens.Because of that,a lot of Confederate would try to supplament their poorer quality by Federal gear.So if need be,an 1858 canteen with jean cover or simply no cover would work well.

Usually whatever canteen the Union was carrying, the CS soldier ended up carrying the same thing

Thanks guys for the info. Okay, so I'm thinking that maybe my best impression would be to carry my federal canteen ('58 smoothside with jean cover and Cincinnatti depot sling) at mid-to-late war events and possibly an early CS issue canteen or militia canteen early war??? So, is there any surviving records of early war cs issue canteens (preferably at Camp Lee at the Richmond Fair Grounds for instance)? Right now it appears that I can't go wrong with the standard tin drum, cotton webbing sling, cork stopper, cotton webbing sling. Anyone know how the tin drum was produced and any info on the rookie question of beeswax lining v/s hot dipped?

[Jimmayo]

Re: canteens

1. Tin drum canteens were carried up to the end of the war. I dug one from the trench at the present day Pamplin Park (before it was park). Canteens were made by local tin smiths on contract to the CS government and in some cases, locally purchased. They were easy to make that is why there are so many of them in all sizes.

2. If you do find a record of canteen issue all it is likely to say is "canteen". I suggest you read the Va. Regimantal History or any letters you can find on the unit you are portraying. Usually if canteens are mentioned it will be the lack of them that will be pointed out. I think you can rule out any large issue of any style of M-1858 at Camp Lee in Richmond since the opportunity to gather these from the battle field didn't exist prior to 1st Manassas.

[lukegilly13]

Re: canteens

Jim
You seem to really know your canteens. You were right, any documentation I find just says "canteens" or "good heavy canteens". Here's a question. It seems that the flat sided tin drum is the most versitile for a strictly confederate canteen. Now, would a flat sided tin drum be acceptable for a portrayal of a VA soldier at Manassas...and then the same canteen work for say Chickamauga, Gettysburg, and Petersburg? To make it even more versitile, what about adding a federal depot leather strap for mid to late war events just to break things up? I have a federal smoothside, but I get tired of looking at them in our ranks. I want something a little different but very realistic.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: canteens

Jim
You seem to really know your canteens. You were right, any documentation I find just says "canteens" or "good heavy canteens". Here's a question. It seems that the flat sided tin drum is the most versitile for a strictly confederate canteen. Now, would a flat sided tin drum be acceptable for a portrayal of a VA soldier at Manassas...and then the same canteen work for say Chickamauga, Gettysburg, and Petersburg? To make it even more versitile, what about adding a federal depot leather strap for mid to late war events just to break things up? I have a federal smoothside, but I get tired of looking at them in our ranks. I want something a little different but very realistic.

Luke,

The variations in Tin Drum Canteens is virtually limitless...with there being extreme differences in; size, flat sided, flat side/convex side, convex side/convex side, spout sizes, spout shapes, retaining rings...etc.

In the end...there is no "perfect" canteen...only ones that can be considered more "generic". The best answer, if the quest is to document a particular impression is to find a style canteen you can attribute to a particular unit...otherwise it's really all a wash.

Not that this has any real bearing on the style tin drum to be used; but are the events (Mannassas, Gettysburg, Chicamauga, Petersburg) you intend to portray predominately Eastern Theatre ala ANV?

What's with the desire to polute a perfectly good confederate canteen with federal trappings? The predominate amount of Confederate canteens surviving today have either no strap on them, or have straps of CS manufacture (leather, folded linen, webbing...and a variety of closures button, small harness buckles, clothing buckles...etc.).

Paul B.

[lukegilly13]

Re: canteens

Every impression I do is ANV with the occassional AOT (such as this year at Chicamauga)but pretty much always eastern theater. I do some local events that are borderline western theater around here and we now have three progressive messes that are camping together and so far this year we are seeing a good change (that's a story for a different thread haha). I do a GREAT DEAL of living history at the local national park and schools.
Federal strap....I was thinking it would be appropriate for mid-to-late war to go with federal field pick up out of necessity...after rethinking, it would not make sense for a soldier to simply cut off a strap..if he needed the strap, he'd probably take smooth side canteen and all. Do you know of any surviving ANV images where soldiers are wearing canteens that are very clearly visible? I'm looking at the famous gettysburg prisoners...they seem to be carrying bullseye canteens with leather straps. I also looked at the punch bowl but nothing is clear enough to tell what they are.

[Jimmayo]

Re: canteens

Ditto to what Paul said above.

There are federal canteens being carried by Confederate soldiers and pictured in the LOC pictures taken around Petersburg. The Five Forks prisoner picture shows several canteens which appear to be uncovered M-1858 canteens however the picture is too out of focus to provide a detailed examination. The pictures taken at Alsop's farm also show a dead CS soldier with a bullseye canteen and split strap. The split strap appears to have been a CS issued strap but only because there is no evidence which has surfaced indicating Federal use. There are several pictures of surviving ones on my canteen page.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: canteens

Every impression I do is ANV with the occassional AOT (such as this year at Chicamauga)but pretty much always eastern theater. I do some local events that are borderline western theater around here and we now have three progressive messes that are camping together and so far this year we are seeing a good change (that's a story for a different thread haha). I do a GREAT DEAL of living history at the local national park and schools.
Federal strap....I was thinking it would be appropriate for mid-to-late war to go with federal field pick up out of necessity...after rethinking, it would not make sense for a soldier to simply cut off a strap..if he needed the strap, he'd probably take smooth side canteen and all. Do you know of any surviving ANV images where soldiers are wearing canteens that are very clearly visible? I'm looking at the famous gettysburg prisoners...they seem to be carrying bullseye canteens with leather straps. I also looked at the punch bowl but nothing is clear enough to tell what they are.

You are aware that the ANV was represented at the Battle of Chicamauga...right?

One must be very careful when examining the famous Gettysburg Prisoners image...not the heavy use of heavy Federal trappings (canteens, knapsack...etc.) in use by the prisoners...it has been suspect that these may be "props" in the image...and not really indicative of their personal equipment or that of typical CS soldiers.

Please, Please, Please...avoid the use of a Bullseye/Corrugated canteen for your CS Impression unless portraying "late-war" events or have specific documentation to the impression. While the Bullseye Canteen is a still a M1858 pattern canteen, I believe the mass production/issuance of these occurred during the second half of the war (there goes your versatility...when you have to explain how you as a Confederate would have a canteen of this style during the entire war). We have had several conversations over the years...at length about the use of Federal Canteens for CS Impressions, and if your'e set on using a Federal Canteen...I would stick to the Smooth-side, with the split leather strap mentioned by Jim Mayo.

For mass versatility a tin drum of any documented configuration will serve you well...otherwise getting a good wooden "Gardner" pattern canteen will serve you equally as well, as these can be documented throughout the war, but are believed to be somewhat less prevalent than their tin-drum counterparts.

Paul B.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: canteens

Hallo!

"So, finally, is the beeswax lining a reenactorism to prevent rustwater or is this a period practice (also were originals "hot dipped"or could we ever know)?"

n brief and to over-generalize... a reenactorism to try to get modern electro-late steel not rust whne it it is not dried and stored properly- and to extend the life of tinware for years instead of just to the next supply/reissuance cycle.

IMHO, and I should let a "period" tinsmith answer... but "hot dipped" is coating sheet steel to "simulate" the Period technology of "pickling vat" treating sheet iron (a process no longer in use and expensive to replicate).

Curt

[westcoastcampaigner]

Re: canteens

Ditto to what Paul said above.

There are federal canteens being carried by Confederate soldiers and pictured in the LOC pictures taken around Petersburg. The Five Forks prisoner picture shows several canteens which appear to be uncovered M-1858 canteens however the picture is too out of focus to provide a detailed examination. The pictures taken at Alsop's farm also show a dead CS soldier with a bullseye canteen and split strap. The split strap appears to have been a CS issued strap but only because there is no evidence which has surfaced indicating Federal use. There are several pictures of surviving ones on my canteen page.

Jim or Paul,

Is there any kind of timeframe as to when the split leather canteen strap came into being among Confederate troops. Would they be appropriate for Gettysburg timeframe or does that seem too early based on the images you have seen? I just made one and can't wait to use it in the field. Thanks for the help.


Best Regards,

Josh Sawyer
Liberty Rifles

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Re: canteens

The pictures taken at Alsop's farm also show a dead CS soldier with a bullseye canteen and split strap. The split strap appears to have been a CS issued strap but only because there is no evidence which has surfaced indicating Federal use. There are several pictures of surviving ones on my canteen page.

Back in 2004, Paul Calloway, provided this image on split straps:


"Spotsylvania Court House, Va., vicinity. Body of another Confederate soldier near Mrs. Alsop's house].


O'Sullivan, Timothy H., 1840-1882, photographer.


CREATED/PUBLISHED
[1864 May]

SUMMARY
Photograph from the main eastern theater of war, Grant's Wilderness Campaign, May-June 1864.

NOTES
Reference: Civil War photographs, 1861-1865 / compiled by Hirst D. Milhollen and Donald H. Mugridge, Washington, D.C. : Library of Congress, 1977. No. 0298

Title from Milhollen and Mugridge. Forms part of Selected Civil War photographs, 1861-1865 (Library of Congress)"

[lukegilly13]

Re: canteens

Thanks Paul and Jim! Exactly what I was looking for! It seems to me that a good flat side drum will be my next purchase! Probably will go with the woven cotton sling but might look at split slings as well.

[westcoastcampaigner]

Re: canteens

If you're going with a flat side tin drum canteen, might I suggest Otter Creek tinware. I have one of his and it's great! Hope you find what you are looking for. Take care.

Regards,

Josh Sawyer
Liberty Rifles