1858 Enfield Naval Pattern Rifle Bayonet

[The Wizard]

I have a first generation Parker-Hale 1858 Enfield Naval Pattern Rifle for which I am looking to get a bayonet. Please be specific in your answers.
1) Which would fit my rifle better a reproduction or an original?
2) Who has the best reproduction bayonet I need for this rifle?
3) Where would I look for an original bayonet?
4) Any fitting require with either a reproduction or an original?
Thank you for your input.

[David Fox]

Re: 1858 Enfield Naval Pattern Rifle Bayonet

Douglas: if you're talking about the sabre bayonet, I believe the P.58 naval rifle ships it. Originals are not too dear. If you're talking about the cutlass bayonet (an oximoron of inpractibility), originals ARE dear, indeed...one would not think an original would be an option on a replica rifle. The potential damage to the leather scabbard alone in reenacting would be daunting. For an original, if that is your choice, Google "Enfield cutlass bayonets" w/ patience and/or try to get to a majour Civil War show, such as the mega show at the Nashville fairgrounds first weekend in December. That's where I saw my last one.
Legendary Arms ( www.Legendaryarms.com ) carries sound replicas. Any replica bayonet, with a tad of fitting, can be mated to any reasonably close match of a rifle...and you wouldn't want to be tinkering w/ an original bayonet nor rifle.
Original naval Enfields, at least the one I owned, were a hit-or-miss proposition as to fitting original cutlass bayonets. Of the several originals I tried to ship on mine over the years, none worked well: the socket was either not quite the right diameter or the barrel stud was too big or too far forward, or both. It is my experience each cutlass bayonet must have been hand fitted.
As an aside, something like 100 naval Enfields with cutlass bayonets were among the cargo of the Fingal, which ran into Mobile in '61. These weapons were issued to a company of Alabama infantry, as I recall.

[erik]

Re: 1858 Enfield Naval Pattern Rifle Bayonet

When I first purchased my P53 Parker Hale I also bought a Naval Rifle as that rifle led to the adopting of the 1860 pattern short rifle. Being a Rifleman I wanted a short two band enfield. I put my original sword bayonet on and it fit like a glove. The Naval rifle was issued to the Navy with the Cutlass bayonet and to the Royal Marines with the standard Yatagan sword bayonet. It strikes me that the use of a cutlass bayonet would be extremley odd as a reenactor unless your impression as to time and armement supports this. The Naval rifle is a lovely reproduction, handy and well made. I would not want a cutlass bayonet dragging down my belt unless accuracy demanded it.
Why did I sell that rifle?

Erik Simundson

[tarheelmilitia]

Re: 1858 Enfield Naval Pattern Rifle Bayonet

I concur with Mr.Simundson & Mr.Fox. One thing not mentioned was prices. The price of originals have gone throught the roof in the past few years. I think when you see some of the premiums being paid for these cutlass bayonets it will shine a little light on your question ;).

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: 1858 Enfield Naval Pattern Rifle Bayonet

Hallo!

In brief and to over-generalize...

1) Which would fit my rifle better a reproduction or an original?

It is said that Parker-Hale used the sealed patterns when they made their repro Pattern 1853 RM. P1858 Naval Rifle, and Pattern 1861 Artillery Carbine- all 4th Models.
Previous models of the originals made under contract at Birmingham, London, and Liege, Belgium did not have interchangeable parts. So, the various bayonets rarely fit unless one is lucky or they happen to (by wild if not astronomical chance) have come from the same linked bayonet makers.
IMHO, if you to find a cutlass bayonet made for the RSAF made P1858 Naval Rifles (2,280 only made in 1863-1864) it should fit the Parker-Hale very well. Everything else is non-interchangeable and luck.

2) Who has the best reproduction bayonet I need for this rifle?

No one.
What we have to deal with is varying degrees of poor, poorer, and poorest when it comes to the Indian and Pakistani reproductions where close is good enough and the actual product will vary even at the same importer as over time different "shops' handmake slightly different versions based uon the skill of the individual workers.

3) Where would I look for an original bayonet?

The random find of gun shows, particularly those gun shows "dedicated" as
"Civil War" shows.
I do not recall them from memory, but there are also on-line websites that are dedicated to bayonet sales (I have bought WWI bayonets from several in the past.)


4) Any fitting require with either a reproduction or an original?

Refer to Nos. 1 and 2 above.

As shared, the Naval Rifle was intended to be used by sailors with the cutlass bayonet, and by the Royal Marines with the sword bayonet.

The reproduction P1858 Naval Rifle is "problematical" for ACW use as only
a total of 2,280 were made in 1863-1864 with no indication that any made their way to America.
The best one can do, IMHO, is to:

1. so-called "de-farb" or retrovert it back to some of the "Third Model looking" features of a Birmingham, London, or Liege made contract piece.

2. get an original or "de-farb" a repro India or Pakistani "Enfield sword bayonet"

3. and try to live with a P1858 with an artillery carbine/short rifle sword bayonet.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[pipthelimey]

Re: 1858 Enfield Naval Pattern Rifle Bayonet

Curt,
I know this an old thread, but I wanted to post this link for you. It's a rifle that was sold by Tim Prince, P1858 with JS Anchor markings. http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/sh...3&cat=0&page=6

There is something in the McRae papers about a stipulation that 1858's must be shipped with the 1856 Army's bayonet, and NOT the cutlass style. It's still probably the least popular of the imported two band rifles,mbut the BSAT was making them and other styles for the Volunteer movement in Britain when the ACW broke out, so it stands to reason that some of them were included in the 10,000 "short rifles" ordered by Huse. Tim doesn't list his sources, but states at least 200 came over on the Gladiator as part of 700 from Sinclair, Hamilton & Co.

[Jimmayo]

Re: 1858 Enfield Naval Pattern Rifle Bayonet

My second CW gun was a two band PH Naval rifle. I bought an original sabre bayonet from a dealer in GB around 1980 and it fit perfect. I rue the day I sold that gun and bayonet and wish I still had them. It was much better than the Euro I have now.

[Nighthawk]

Re: 1858 Enfield Naval Pattern Rifle Bayonet

Jim,

I did the same darned thing with the same regrets. The only difference is that I kept and still have the sword bayonet and scabbard as they are original. Wish I had my rifle back too!