Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

[Sanssouci]

Gents,
Has anyone seen documentation of English Army Cloth/Blue Gray jackets (aside from Tait or Houston Depot jackets) used in the Western Theatre of operations. I tried to find some info using the threads but had no luck.

Thanks for your time and information.

Very Respectfully,
John Turner

[Hardtack Herring]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Well,

Longstreet Corps was wearing almost all Blue Grey Jackets at the Battle of Chickamauga.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Hi,

Besides for officers frock coats made out of English Army Cloth, Tait jackets, and the Houston Depot; I do not believe that the cloth was used in any other depot or contract. With exception to what Mr. Herring said about Longstreets men at Chickamauga, which were wearing Richmond Depot II jackets made out of English Army Cloth.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Longstreets men at Chickamauga, which were wearing Richmond Depot II jackets made out of English Army Cloth.

Can you support "Richmond Depot II" ?

I thought Les Jensen coined the term.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Hi,

From what I have read, it would seem that Longstreet's men were wearing Richmond Depot style jackets that did not have trim, as the early Richmond Depot jacket had. Although from my understanding, these jackets were not refered to as "Richmond Depot II", it is the best way to describe the jacket. Also, from what I have read the "Richmond Depot III", was not issued until the spring of 1864. Which make the "Richmond Depot II" the only logical jacket that these men were mainly wearing at this point. If there is evidence that would suggest that Longstreet's men were wearing a different style jacket, I would be very interested in learning about it.

[Secesh]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

While Longstreet's men were wearing blue-gray jackets, to the best of my knowledge there is nothing to support that they were issued by the Richmond Depot. George Otott, who commanded our unit for many years and is a fountain of knowledge on the 1st Texas, claimed to have documentation for a thesis he was working on showing that the uniforms, or many of them, were actually a governmental purchase from North Carolina, who had an overabundance of surplus uniforms (approx. 90,000 still in warehouses by War's end). You seem to not realize that Longstreet's Corps made several stops on the way to Chickamauga, and may have been resupplied at any of those....There is also evidence to support, especially for the Trans-Miss (Texas), that some of the States were also contracting for the delivery of English goods to be run thru the blockade. If I am not mistaken, North Carolina was one of them...

[David Fox]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

The Athens Depot...after the 1862 Kentucky campaign (took)... the wool...acquired in Kentucky...and (began) producing clothing from it" ("A Survey of Confederate Central Government Quartermaster Issue Jackets, Part I" by Leslie D. Jensen at pg. 162 of the "Journal of the Company of Military Historians", Vol. XLI, No. 4) who knows what cadet (blue-grey) grey cloth was policed-up by Bragg in Kentucky, which had made a start under Buckner to make it regulation for the Commonwealth's impressively numerous State Guard before and early in the war. Dave Fox

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Tom great post.

Ever put any thought to "Script I's" being found in Western CS camps as result of originally being on NC produced garments ?

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

While Longstreet's men were wearing blue-gray jackets, to the best of my knowledge there is nothing to support that they were issued by the Richmond Depot. George Ottot, who commanded our unit for many years and is a fountain of knowledge on the 1st Texas, claimed to have documentation for a thesis he was working on showing that the uniforms, or many of them, were actually a governmental purchase from North Carolina, who had an overabundance of surplus uniforms (approx. 90,000 still in warehouses by War's end). You seem to not realize that Longstreet's Corps made several stops on the way to Chickamauga, and may have been resupplied at any of those along the way....There is also evidence to support, especially for the Trans-Miss (Texas), that some of the States were also contracting for the delivery of English goods to be run thru the blockade. If I am not mistaken, I believe North Carolina was one of them...

Hi,

Upon re-reading my first post, I made it sound like Houston Depot did not usually make the jackets out of the English Army Cloth. That is not what I was meaning by the post, and I have changed my original post to what I really was trying to say. North Carolina and Texas both imported the English Army Cloth for their troops, and there is lots of information on the fact that both North Carolina and Houston Depot made their jackets out of the English kesery. As for the Southern government buying up extra jackets from NC; I was unaware of this information, and would be interested in learning more about it. Thanks

[Secesh]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Thanks Chris! I appreciate it!

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

David,

I would hesitate to consider "cadet gray" cloth and English Army Cloth to be the same thing, and I feel it is very unlikely that, without documentation stating that the state of Kentucky was importing English Army Cloth before or during the war, and that it would have been there for Bragg to acquire during his campaign.

A few years back Jordan Ricketts showed me pictures of the original swatch cards used by the state of Kentucky for the purchasing of the materials for the equipping of their troops, and though my memory is a little fuzzy I believe that a material completely different from English Army Cloth was specified as their "cadet gray." Hopefully we can get Jordan to post on this thread as he has forgotten more about Western material culture than I could ever hope to learn!

At any rate, just stating that we should be careful not to confuse what is termed as "cadet gray" with the English Army Cloth that was imported by the central and state governments during the war.


Best,

[lukegilly13]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

This is my understanding of Longstreet's move to the Western theater.
Longstreet begged Lee several times to be sent west and Lee would not accept it. In fact, Longstreet probably would not have been transfered had he not contacted Sec. of War James Seddon and then enforced his political pull with Senator Louis Wigfall to put a little pressure on President Davis. This was in September of '63. When the move finally did happen, it was just under 800 miles and Longstreet did so by the use of 15 or so railways. I believe the trip took just less than 1 month. As I recall, the life expectancy of a uniform in the field would be 3 months. Now, the question remains, when was the last time that Lee's army was supplied by the Richmond Depot during the Gettysburg Campaign? As Longstreet's chore did travel through the Carlinas in his journey to bail out Bragg.....what would make one think that he stopped to be resupplied? I think there is sufficient evidence to argue that lots of confederate soldiers in Gettysburg were wearing jackets believed to come from the Richmond Depot (at least meeting the description we all know of the RD....eppaulets, belt loops, etc). So, as it is true that Longstreet's men COULD of had access to the NC depot....we KNOW they had access to Richmond. Now, certainly the ANV was stretching their supply lines a little thin when on the PA campaign...but when was the last time we have evidence of the ANV drawing from the Richmond depot on this campaign? I'm afraid this information may have gone up in smoke.
To sum up my post...do we have hard evidence of how recently Longstreets men were supplied by the Richmond Depot before early September of '63? If so, do we have solid evidence of a resupply while making the move? If not, then we have no reason to believe they weren't still wearing the richmond uni's that we know they had at Gettysburg.
I'm sure it's out there somewhere....could someone post a description of Longstreet's men at Chickadusty?

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Hi,

Here is a quote from one of Bragg's artillerymen:

"Our first impression was partly caused by the color of there uniforms (dark blue-grey jackets, light blue trousers).... the superior style of their equipment, in haversacks, canteens, and knapsacks. The contrast between them and General Bragg's motley, ragged troops was striking in the extreme!"

This is a quote from one of Kershaw's men:

"dark blue rounded jacket, closely fitting, with light blue trousers: closely resembled those worn by the enemy."


(The quotes are from Don Troiani's Civil War Infantry, and according to the book, the uniforms came from Richmond Depot.)

This leads me to believe that Longstreet's men had been equiped by some depot, either Richmond or North Carolina before going on this campaign. An interesting thing to note, is the fact that neither account talks about shoulder straps or belt loops, which are notable features of the Richmond Depot jacket.

[CSchneider]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

While Longstreet's men were wearing blue-gray jackets, to the best of my knowledge there is nothing to support that they were issued by the Richmond Depot. . . . the uniforms, or many of them, were actually a governmental purchase from North Carolina . . .

Just to clear things up (and I apologize for getting off topic), but I do not believe that the uniforms Longstreet's two divisions were wearing at Chickamauga, Chattanooga, or Knoxville, were North Carolina products. I hear Longstreet and North Carolina uniforms tossed around once in a while, and I think the notion comes from a reference to a later issue. From Zeb Vance's own words, via Confederate Industry pages 97-98:

On January 2 following two months of unusually severe weather and with continued separation from military railroad transportation, the reports from east Tennessee became bleaker. Longstreet wrote that his command was, "in great distress for want of shoes and clothing, and in that way so much reduced that we cannot make other details and remain so near the enemy and live by foraging." (Ibid Jan. 2, '64) The beleaguered Tennessee commander soon forwarded a second requisition to outfit his cavalry arm of 6,000 men.
Jefferson Davis called on Lawton for a full report regarding this situation. The chief quartermaster denied any deficiencies in his department, explaining that the main problem was supplying Longstreet's corps was, "due to the fact that I had looked some little time back to supplying it from the depots in the State of Georgia" (Lawton to Davis Jan 7, '64) The Richmond depot was emptied by the fall requisitions of Lee's Army, especially in Ewell's corps and those of Samuel Jones in southwest Virginia. Also, he told Davis, there were major failures in foreign supply, for "the loss of one hundred thousand pairs of shoes and blankets off Wilmington since Sept. has left us in a sad condition in reference to these all important articles." (Lawton to J.E. Johnston Feb. 9, '64)
Lawton characterized Longstreet's second requisition as being "of a more extravagant character, and [one that] demands blankets, overcoats, shoes and entire suit of clothing for every man and officer in the corps." He argues, based on an interview with an officer from east Tennessee, that one-third of the requisition would "relieve the wants of the troops." (Lawton to Davis Jan. 7, '64) With empty warehouses Lawton scaled the cavalry request down by two-thirds and found English brogans and double blankets in quarantine at Wilmington to satisfy this minimal demand.
At this critical moment, North Carolina's Governor Zebulon Vance provided help in saving Longstreet's command by making a timely advance from state stores, a move that Lawton may have anticipated. As Vance wrote, "In the winter succeeding the battle of Chickamauga I sent to General Longstreet's corps 14,000 suits of clothing complete" (Dowd 490) Many of these were made in Salem by Francis Fries. This was the principal supply that Longstreet received during the trying east Tennessee campaign, although on December 12, '63, Lawton ordered Aurelius F. Cone, of the Clothing Depot, to forward to Knoxville 4,000 trousers, 3,000 field jackets, 4,000 pairs of shoes, and other supplies to refit an additional two regiments.

To the initial question, there is the Alfred May uniform, which is made of blue grey and royal blue kersey. Its ID'd to the Carolinas Campaign, so not really "Western," but involving the remnants of units that had been out there.

-Craig Schneider

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Wash ives of the 4th Florida references recieving dark grey jackets with blue cuffs post Missionary ridge (Ives was 4th Fl). lee white also has some info suggesting some english army cloth came through mobile in october of 63 I believe.

Bryant Roberts/ likes Wash Ives