Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

[Secesh]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Lastly, my g-g-g-grandfather fought at Chickamauga with the First Texas, and the dark, blue gray jacket he was wearing still survives and is in my personal possession. In the collar it clearly states "Made in North Carolina".

[Secesh]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Just kidding....

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Lastly, my g-g-g-grandfather fought at Chickamauga with the First Texas, and the dark, blue gray jacket he was wearing still survives and is in my personal possession. In the collar it clearly states "Made in North Carolina".

Hi,

You got me all interested!!!!!!!!:D

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Folks,

Getting a bit off topic here but looking closely at Luke's image (which, by the way, according to the LOC listing is from the summer of '64) I can't help but notice how much wrist is being exposed by the men's short jackets. This could be caused by a number of factors but the tightness of the jackets, especially on our "hero" on the left just screams to me poorly finished jeancloth. Having recently run a number of experiments with jeans I see a lot of similarity here, and who knows, perhaps the troops were in such dire need that the cloth went straight from the loom to the cutting table!

Just an interesting tidbit I thought.


Best,

Dan

[roundshot]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

According to Simpson's "Hood's Texas Brigade" citing Joe Hoskin's "A Sketch of Hood's Texas Brigade," while at Fredericksburg in August 1863 "many of the soldiers were issued new uniforms from the Richmond depots and received shoes from England that had been run through the blockade." I have seen another Texas account that verifies receiving English clothing before departing for GA. This does not rule out the possibility that some of this may have been ready-made English uniforms, but the fact that the Richmond Depot received large quantities of BG Kersey in June makes the "Richmond" pattern by far the most likely style.

The original Joskins MS was privately owned by an individual in Austin, TX according to Simpson's note

[Secesh]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Well, perhaps, but again I must defer to J.B Polley's memoirs. He states that the Brigade took a month to reach Bragg's army, which means that they would have boarded trains in early to mid-August. There is an excellent chance, that being the case, they missed the re-outfitting that occurred for the rest of Lee's Army from the Richmond Depot, hence the need to re-outfit and re-equip in North Carolina. For every reason given for a Richmond Depot issue there is a valid one pointing to North Carolina. By the way...prior to stopping in Atlanta, Georgia, where they stayed overnight, the Brigade stopped in Wilmington, North Carolina for 2 days. Let us bear in mind that Wilmington was a major Atlantic Ocean port for the Confederacy( hmmm...blockade runners, warehouses, manufacturing...), a vital lifeline for the Confederacy to it's trading partners in Europe (especially England), was one of the last CS ports to fall to Federal forces, and according to the 1860 census was nearly the same size as Atlanta. It is also noted that it was important point of entry for munitions, clothing, and medical supplies from Europe. Wilmington would have been a logical place to re-equip a Brigade for a vigorous campaign...

[roundshot]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Polley may say a month, but according to Simpson's sources the Texas brigade did not depart Richmond until September 9th. There is also documentation that the Hampton Legion received their new B/G outfits prior to leaving Richmond as well. I'd say we are letting speculation outweigh actual first person documentation as far as when these uniforms were issued.

[Secesh]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

J.B. Polley WAS first person...he served as a "High Private" in the 1st Texas Infantry....Also, not wanting to steal Hampton's thunder, but they were not a part of the Texas Brigade at this point of the War. They had been replaced by the 3rd Arkansas Infantry, under Col. Van Manning, the Brigade now being composed of the 1st, 4th, & 5th Texas Infantry Regiments, and the 3rd Arkansas Infantry. This would be the make-up of the Brigade until Appomattox.

[David Fox]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

To back up this tread a tad, the oft-quoted statistic that North Carolina had 90,000 uniforms horded at war's end was again mooted. I've never swallowed this, Tar Heel that I am. I believe the source of this statistic is Union general Stoneman who claimed in reports to have distroyed this many uniforms in store, perhaps in Salisbury. Two things: who counted and, more important, in the four years of war, is there ANYTHING of his alleged accomplishments Stoneman didn't exaggerate on a heroic scale? I know in recent decades uniform buttons, attached to scorched cloth, from the Richmond warehouses burnt in 1865 have been circulated. Anyone familiar with like buttons from Stoneman's 1865 arson? Let's see: 90,000 jackets w/ a minimum of five buttons each...that would be at least 450,000 buttons.... Dave Fox

[Secesh]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Then again, what happened to all the additional uniforms sitting in CS depots / warehouses at War's end...? Surely the U.S. Government didn't torch all of them. Perhaps sitting in some long, lost corner of a Federal warehousing facility...???

[roundshot]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Secesh: I am well aware that the Hampton Legion was not associated with the Texas Brigade at this time. My only point in mentioning any of these sources (including the one in Simpson) is that they were in Longstreet's Corps and mention receiving their unique uniforms prior to leaving Richmond. I would admit that your Wilmington scenario makes sense, I just have seen no documentation of such issues taking place. It is possible also that some of the clothing issued from Richmond to Longstreet's men may have indeed come from Gov. Vance's bountiful stocks. Again, I just haven't seen any documentation of this other than Tucker.

[Secesh]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

I agree with you. I simply make this arguement to point out that it erroneous to state that they were wearing untrimmed RD2 style jackets when there is a lack of hard evidnce to poit to such. The evidence I think is circumstantial and vague at best...

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

It is possible also that some of the clothing issued from Richmond to Longstreet's men may have indeed come from Gov. Vance's bountiful stocks.

Each CS state had, for lack of a better term, a "depot" location, in addition to many having hospitals in Richmond serving the needs of its soldiers.

Richmond newspapers, maps and city directories make ample reference to them. I have posted on them here. There were material shipments of all sorts from the respective CS States to these "State Depots". I have often wondered if uniform garments made thier way as well. My spidey senses tell me more than likely but I cant hook it up yet.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Lastly, my g-g-g-grandfather fought at Chickamauga with the First Texas, and the dark, blue gray jacket he was wearing still survives and is in my personal possession. In the collar it clearly states "Made in North Carolina".

WOW!!! This is very cool, for several reasons...any chance of getting a few pics of the jacket (especially of the tag)?

As your'e no doubt aware, labels of origin are...rare, especially when it comes to a large number of CS originated items.

Paul B.

[CSchneider]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Again, to get a few facts straight, Longstreet's guys did not leave Virginia in August, and it took nowhere near a month to arrive in Georgia. I can dig up some first person sources if need be, but with what I have on hand in front of me (Collier's old history of the 3rd Arkansas), the 3rd left Fredericksburg on September 8, reached Richmond on the 10th, and boarded trains on the 11th. I think if someone were to find an account of clothing being issued sometime prior to the second week of September (any dates on those issues Lee?) we can be pretty sure that the issue was not from N.C. It certainly wouldn't guarantee it was from Richmond, but it would make it much more likely.

And I don't think being issued matching clothing from Richmond would be unlikely. When thousands of yards of one particular cloth had just arrived, it seems likely that it would have been used and that a large issue would have included garments made from that cloth. For example, A.T. Barclay of the 4th Virginia wrote about the Stonewall Brigade receiving a large supply of kersey uniforms in late May 1863. I doubt he would have been so specific if Richmond had supplied a pile of garments of mixed materials. If guys had been issued clothing in a more piecemeal fashion, sure, then I can see there being a great variation in material.

-Craig Schneider