Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

[Secesh]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Paul -
I said I was just kidding in my post following the one you paraphrased!

[NC5thCav]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Here are two quotes that I found a while back. Both concern NC uniform issues to AoT units. Neither of the sources back up the NC uniforms being made of bg kersey.

“North Carolina was a widely used jacket. As North Carolina troops saw action on both the eastern and western fronts. it is perhaps one of the only ones that may have been universally issued to both Armies. The jackets used by the Army of Tennessee were of jean cloth, with again the standard osnaburg lining, with a six-button front. It was similar to the Columbus, but slightly shorter in the body. The Army of Tennessee had these issued at Dalton, Georgia, in the winter of 1863/64, and again at Palmetto, Georgia, in September 1864."

"North Carolina maintained a private depot in Richmond where State troops were issued clothing from. As an illustration, the 4th North Carolina was issued on April 4th 1863, 2,000 jackets, 500 pairs of drawers, 635 shirts, 2,030 pairs of pants, 1,500 pairs of socks, 1,980 pairs of shoes and 100 caps, all in new condition. The regiment at this time numbered not more than 500 men. Considering the campaigning that the unit had in front of it that year, and the fact that most would have travelled light, it is a wonder what they would have done with all of these clothes. Longstreet's two divisions were said to have been issued with North Carolina uniforms of a dark grey blue kersey prior to their movement to Tennessee in September 1863. There is a myth, however, attached to this issue of 'blue' North Carolina jackets to Longstreet's troops. The belief is that these jackets were, firstly from North Carolina stocks, secondly, are made from 'English' cloth. It is true that some of Longstreet's Corps did wear clothing that appeared very dark blue. At Chickamauga in September 1863, soldiers from both armies made comment of this fact. Some western Confederates at first took them to be Federals, both from the colour, and the uniformity. Even Grant made comment of it owing to a chance meeting with one of Longstreet's soldiers at Chattanooga creek. The Confederate was wearing a jacket "of little different shade from our own uniform."

However, in looking to explain this one must examine the facts. North Carolina buttons have been found by relic hunters all over northern Georgia. North Carolina did have stocks of 'English Army cloth', imports had begun in June 1863 when the States blockade runner Advance had brought it in. Examples of jackets made from similarly imported cloth appear a dark blue-grey, very different to the usual Confederate grey. Confederate authorities also imported the same material during the same period. There is, however, no case for saying that any North Carolina depot jackets were made of 'army cloth.' Jackets made of similar fabrics that have been placed with North Carolina troops have been either attributed to the Peter Tait contract or Richmond depot. Surviving North Carolina depot jackets appear to have been made from jean cloth or satinette of grey and brown hues. It would seem that of the 100,000 uniforms on hand at the end of the war, much of these may have been the imported cloth. Longstreet did have an issue from the 10,000 North Carolina state uniforms 'loaned' to both himself and Johnson in February 1864. As there were none of that State's troops in Longstreet's divisions, a proportion must have gone to Johnson."

The above text was found at: http://www.acws.co.uk/archives/military/depots.htm

"According to my research 10,000 suits to the AOT in late 64'. 14,000 suits to Longstreet's Corp Spring 64'. and another 10,000 turned over to the Quartermaster for general distribution in late summer 1864."

The above is from from Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown by Tom Arliskas.

Below is a portion of a histroy of the 58th NC writen by Jeffrey Weaver. It describes the regiment at Chattanooga in October of '63 and mentions Longstreets men being supplied with NC clothing.

President Davis called on the Army of Tennessee quartered on the summit above Chattanooga on October 9, 1863 and inspected the soldiers. Davis rode along the entire line, in range of Union cannon at Chattanooga, below. Glenn Tucker, author of Chickamauga: Bloody Battle in the West, wrote in his chapter on Horseshoe Ridge that the 58th North Carolina, recruited from Northwest North Carolina and led by Colonel Palmer was reviewed by the generals. North Carolina Governor Vance had supplied Longstreet's corps with new gray uniforms, while the 58th was in rags and barefoot. The 58th had passed out of state and were orphaned and not given new uniforms. Kelly's Brigade was ordered not to cheer as Governor Vance and the dignitaries passed in review, so they took off their ragged caps and waved them to the generals, who were touched by the ges- ture.

http://members.aol.com/jweaver301/nc/58ncinf.htm#2

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

To go back to Ives:
The mostr widely known published accounts of his letters are a little off. The ones I had access to in the SCV camp in Jax Fl where I grew up were definately paraphrased. I had a buddy who had been to Tallahassee and read the originals. In the published version, it referenced jackets of light and dark grey cloth.... which lead folks to think dark jean. My buddy says it was more like issued dark jackets (kersey) and light jackets (jean) with blue collar and cuffs. it has been years since I looked at all that stuff. I'll be home in 2 weeks and I'll see what I can dig up.

Bryant Roberts/ florida civil war before it was cool

[lukegilly13]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Gentleman, I know I had read this before...but finally I found the source:
Page 67-68 of Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown.
"Uniform descriptions from Chickamauga, like Stones River, are unfortunately few, or yet undiscovered, but Longstreet's Coprs, just arrived from the Army of Northern Virginia, stood in sharp contrast to the soliders of the Army of Tennessee. Longstreet's men were issued new uniforms in Virginia, described as:
...dark blue round jacket....confederates resembled the enemy....
More importantly: on page 68
"Longstreet's Corps at Chickamauga, "We drew new uniforms as we passed through Richmond." We know that Longstreet's Corps was sent west in September 1863 to reinforce Braggs Army of Tennessee. They arrived by train wearing new Richmond Quartermaster Depot uniforms. Corporal Wm. A. Brown of Stanford's Mississippi Battery remembered on the morning of Sept. 19, 1863...............The jacket and cap color was described as "dark steel gray, the same color and fabric worn by the officers." Consensus among researchers is that these jackets and caps were made of imported English cloth of a darker blue-gray shade. By mid-Dec 1863, two months later, this uniform was reduced to rags. Longstreet's men had to wait another five months before a second issue of clothing came to them."

Sounds like they arrived in Richmond Depots of English Army Cloth....after 5-7 months, were replaced by something else.

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

From Soldering in the Army of Tennessee by Larry J Daniel page 11

from W A Brown's diary, one of Braggs cannoneers:
"OUr first impression was partly caused by the color of their uniform, but more by its uniformity, and the superior style of their equipments, in haversacks,canteens, and knapsacks. This contrast between them and Gen' Bragg's motley, ragged troops was striking in the extreme. If this command was a specimen of Lee's troops, they are certainly superior to the troops of the Army of Tennessee, IN DRESS."


interesting

Bryant Roberts

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Washington Ives of the 4th Florida Infantry, noted on 21 October 1863: "Our regt is just drawing some excellent clothing; jackets of gray, blue cuffs..." A few days later, he described them in more detail: "...The coats are dark and light gray (mostly with blue collars and cuffs ...it is worsted cross between cassimere and jeans, very warm and disireable... "

This quote is from the A SURVEY OF
CONFEDERATE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT
QUARTERMASTER ISSUE JACKETS

by Leslie D. Jensen

Hi,

It says that the jacket's fabric was a like, and I quote, "it is worsted cross between cassimere and jeans". Which then would rule out kesery cloth I am pretty sure.

[roundshot]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

These are quotes from the original Washington Ives Diary. You decide, but his entries do leave one with a different impression about these uniforms. Note he clearly says "jackets of kersey" below, while the pants are other stuff:

October 21st, 1863, "Our Regt. is just drawing some excellent clothing. Jackets of kearsy, blue cuffs, pants, worsted indescribible, shoes, caps, shirts, etc."

October 31st, 1863, "The army has just drawn comfortable winter clothing and blankets. The coats are dark and light gray (mostly with blue collars and cuffs) the pants light and dark gray, similar goods to the jackets, but what kind of goods it is, I never have seen or heard, (I don't know) or even a person who could tell what kind of goods it is except it is worsted, a cross between cashmere and jeans, very warm and durable."

November 1st. 1863, "The pants and jackets are of superior army goods. The caps and underclothing are miserable but that is not as bad as having poor pants, shoes, etc. Quantities of new English blankets have been issued, a single one is large enough to cover a double bed, and the texture is far superior to the blankets usually brought south with

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Bob Williams

These are quotes from the original Washington Ives Diary. You decide, but his entries do leave one with a different impression about these uniforms. Note he clearly says "jackets of kersey" below, while the pants are other stuff:

October 21st, 1863, "Our Regt. is just drawing some excellent clothing. Jackets of kearsy, blue cuffs, pants, worsted indescribible, shoes, caps, shirts, etc."

October 31st, 1863, "The army has just drawn comfortable winter clothing and blankets. The coats are dark and light gray (mostly with blue collars and cuffs) the pants light and dark gray, similar goods to the jackets, but what kind of goods it is, I never have seen or heard, (I don't know) or even a person who could tell what kind of goods it is except it is worsted, a cross between cashmere and jeans, very warm and durable."

November 1st. 1863, "The pants and jackets are of superior army goods. The caps and underclothing are miserable but that is not as bad as having poor pants, shoes, etc. Quantities of new English blankets have been issued, a single one is large enough to cover a double bed, and the texture is far superior to the blankets usually brought south with

Hi,

Thanks for posting the whole quotes; I have never seen the whole thing before. His driscription of kesery is very interesting; I have worked with kesery, wool jean, and cassimere, and to me that would be a strange way to discribe the kesery cloth. Mr. Williams, do you know where I can find his whole dairy? Thanks

Andrew

[roundshot]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

State of Florida Collection in State Archives at Tallahassee, I believe.

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Andrew,
You can set an appt to view the originals. Or at least you could 10 years ago....


Bryant Roberts

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

I had forgotten he mentioned the English blankets. Have to keep my eye out.....


Bryant Roberts

[JStiles]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Some info to support issuance of clothes, etc from Richmond:

General Lee had, before we left Virginia, caused to be issued to us clothes and shoes. Frequently, Bragg's men proposed to exchange a "Bragg" jacket for a "Lee" jacket..."

RT Coles, Adjutant- 4th Alabama Infantry, Law's Brigade

Jerry Stiles

[floridawar]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Back to the west, it appears the majority of comments favors a nondescript, un-uniform appearance for western troops through the battle of Chickamauga. In that period I have always found intriguing the comment by Longstreet's staff officer G. Moxley Sorrell, made while describing the organization of Bragg's army compared to Lee's (memoirs of a confederate staff officer, p. 199)

"The personal appearance of Bragg's army was, of
course, matter of interest to us of Virginia. The
men were a fine-looking lot, strong, lean, long-limbed
fighters. The Western tunic was much worn by
both officers and men. It is an excellent garment,
and its use could be extended with much advantage."

I have assumed that the "western tunic" is a reference to homespun or state produced frock coats.

James Marshall
Tampa, FL

[roundshot]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

By the term "western tunic," I have always suspected that Sorrel was referencing an oversmock or what is often styled as a "guerilla shirt" type garment, much like those associated with Quantrill's men or as seen in several photos of Missouri soldiery. Google the term "western tunic" now and you will see some current women's fashions in this style.

[floridawar]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Bob Wrote: " I have always suspected that Sorrel was referencing an oversmock or what is often styled as a "guerilla shirt" type garment, much like those associated with Quantrill's men or as seen in several photos of Missouri soldiery. Google the term "western tunic" now and you will see some current women's fashions in this style."

Aha, I could buy that, especially considering comments by Ives and others about the "nakedness" of Bragg's Army, as when Ives described the soldiers as one man, one hat, one shirt, one pr. pants and shoes, etc. prior to the battle. My earlier assumption was based on Sorrell's earlier comments about the regulation "tunic" vs. the popular frock coat for officers etc.

James "Archie" Marshall
Tampa, FL