Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

[marktaylor]

I am going to dig this thread up from the dead.

I thought about this discussion as I read “Wiregrass to Appomattox” which is about the 50th GA Inf. (A great book by the way). I came across some information in the book that relates to both the travel time and where some clothing/equipment issue took place (At least for Bryan’s Brigade, formerly Semmes). The book is a compilation of letters written by men that served in the 5th GA.

While not a direct quote from a man of the 50th, on page 142 the author writes “… the Brigade finally rolled in to Atlanta on September 19th four days after leaving Petersburg.”

A few pages earlier there is a excerpt from a letter written by Billy Pendleton of the 50th shortly after the ANV return from the Gettysburg campaign. They had stopped in the Shenandoah Valley for several days. “We had a wonderful rest and we received some shoes, sent from Richmond. They had come from England, run through the blockade to Wilmington, NC. They were the first pointed shoes I had ever seen.” There is no mention of new clothing. A letter written in December, Billy states his shoes are completely worn out.

[floridawar]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

By the term "western tunic," I have always suspected that Sorrel was referencing an oversmock or what is often styled as a "guerilla shirt" type garment, much like those associated with Quantrill's men or as seen in several photos of Missouri soldiery. Google the term "western tunic" now and you will see some current women's fashions in this style.

I found a reference to Confederate dead at Chickamauga which sort of confirms the above as noted in this thread.
In "the History of Michigan Organizations at Chickamauga, Chattanooga, and Missionary Ridge, 1863" (1897) page 114 appears the following description:

"At one point about fifty Confederate dead had been carried together and laid in line for burial. Near the center of this line lay the remains of a venerable looking old man, with long white beard, dressed only in a clean white shirt and light blue jean trousers; by his side lay the corpse of a beautiful boy not over fifteen years of age, dressed in the Confederate gray. By this time it was a well known fact that the flower of Lee's army (Longstreets corps) had joined Bragg. This contrast between the old man and boy brought to mind the assertion that the Georgia state militia were also on the field..."

I could find no reference to GA. Militia troops at Chickamauga. (somebody might chime in and confirm, etc.) I believe that assertion was based on contemporary hearsay, for example it was contended that the GA. militia and Longstreet's Corps reinforced Bragg during the battle in "The Rebellion Record" (1864) p. 245. The description of a western reb in shirt and blue jeans, vs. a Longstreet boy in Confederate gray seems to match the preponderance of other info.

[DougCooper]

Re: Ives Journal and "kearsy"

Bob Williams

Hi,

Thanks for posting the whole quotes; I have never seen the whole thing before. His driscription of kesery is very interesting; I have worked with kesery, wool jean, and cassimere, and to me that would be a strange way to discribe the kesery cloth. Mr. Williams, do you know where I can find his whole dairy? Thanks

Andrew

Civil War Journal and Letters of Washington Ives 4th FLA CSA. Transcribed by Jim R. Cabaniss, 1987. Honestly can't remember where I bought this, but it is nice to have the complete transcription. There are so many excellent quotes in this diary - Ives noticed everything, from comments on logistics (uniforms, supply, rations, etc), morale, the enemy, battles, homefront, etc.

The trouble is, I can't find any mention of kersey (or kearsy) in the Oct 21 entry. The quote I show is:

"Our reg't is just drawing some excellent clothing, jackets of Gray, blue cuffs, pants, shoes, caps, shirts, etc... I hope to be entirely recovered soon, if not I may go to a hospital and I will telegraph."

This is the same as quoted by Jensen. Bob, did you read this directly off the letter, and could it be different from the journal?

[floridawar]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Doug,

see this thread:
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...ashington+ives

Specifically post #5 by Lee White. Cabanniss was evidently fast and loose with his transcription.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Reading this thread from beginning to end is like watching my dog chase his own tail. You guys are all quoting the same people over and over again, but the quotes don't seem to match up. The speculation based on some small bit of information and ignoring other small bits of information is all just that - speculation.

[Gallinipper]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

In keeping with the spirit of the original question, may I throw this one out? Has anybody mentioned jackets attributed- by Jensen, at least- to the Charleston Depot? (Can that be considered "west" in the sense that it was not within the scope of the ANV's theater of operations, but moreso of the AOT's?)

I didn't read it all either, so if this redundant please forgive me.

Rich Croxton

[LWhite64]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Just in regards to Chickamauga, the Georgia Militia was not on the field here, and ironically by all of the descriptions the old fellow was more likely to have been with Longsteet due to the blue pants.

Lee

[Gallinipper]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Lee, I did notice your well-placed comments about a certain author, as well. If perchance you happen to speak to Mr. Hunter again in the near future, please be sure to refrain from using the words "Glenn" and "Tucker". As I recall, mere mention of that name in his presence is generally followed with a most pained expression!

For those who may not have seen it, Dave's article "The Jacket That Almost Was" which graced the pages of CCG a few years ago, is an outstanding read.

In addition to Chickamauga, those blue-gray NC uniforms have also been "seen" everywhere from burning on the compound at Salisbury prison to on the backs of German POWs.

Rich Croxton

[coastaltrash]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

"Reading this thread from beginning to end is like watching my dog chase his own tail. You guys are all quoting the same people over and over again, but the quotes don't seem to match up. The speculation based on some small bit of information and ignoring other small bits of information is all just that - speculation."

That is specifically what is wrong with this side of the hobby now. If I turned "in my opinion" and have said opinion not based in documented fact, but rather loose based opinions and here say, into a drinking game, I could get a frat house screwed up in 5 minutes on this forum.

[marktaylor]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Just to clear things up (and I apologize for getting off topic), but I do not believe that the uniforms Longstreet's two divisions were wearing at Chickamauga, Chattanooga, or Knoxville, were North Carolina products. I hear Longstreet and North Carolina uniforms tossed around once in a while, and I think the notion comes from a reference to a later issue. From Zeb Vance's own words, via Confederate Industry pages 97-98:

On January 2 following two months of unusually severe weather and with continued separation from military railroad transportation, the reports from east Tennessee became bleaker. Longstreet wrote that his command was, "in great distress for want of shoes and clothing, and in that way so much reduced that we cannot make other details and remain so near the enemy and live by foraging." (Ibid Jan. 2, '64) The beleaguered Tennessee commander soon forwarded a second requisition to outfit his cavalry arm of 6,000 men.
Jefferson Davis called on Lawton for a full report regarding this situation. The chief quartermaster denied any deficiencies in his department, explaining that the main problem was supplying Longstreet's corps was, "due to the fact that I had looked some little time back to supplying it from the depots in the State of Georgia" (Lawton to Davis Jan 7, '64) The Richmond depot was emptied by the fall requisitions of Lee's Army, especially in Ewell's corps and those of Samuel Jones in southwest Virginia. Also, he told Davis, there were major failures in foreign supply, for "the loss of one hundred thousand pairs of shoes and blankets off Wilmington since Sept. has left us in a sad condition in reference to these all important articles." (Lawton to J.E. Johnston Feb. 9, '64)
Lawton characterized Longstreet's second requisition as being "of a more extravagant character, and [one that] demands blankets, overcoats, shoes and entire suit of clothing for every man and officer in the corps." He argues, based on an interview with an officer from east Tennessee, that one-third of the requisition would "relieve the wants of the troops." (Lawton to Davis Jan. 7, '64) With empty warehouses Lawton scaled the cavalry request down by two-thirds and found English brogans and double blankets in quarantine at Wilmington to satisfy this minimal demand.
At this critical moment, North Carolina's Governor Zebulon Vance provided help in saving Longstreet's command by making a timely advance from state stores, a move that Lawton may have anticipated. As Vance wrote, "In the winter succeeding the battle of Chickamauga I sent to General Longstreet's corps 14,000 suits of clothing complete" (Dowd 490) Many of these were made in Salem by Francis Fries. This was the principal supply that Longstreet received during the trying east Tennessee campaign, although on December 12, '63, Lawton ordered Aurelius F. Cone, of the Clothing Depot, to forward to Knoxville 4,000 trousers, 3,000 field jackets, 4,000 pairs of shoes, and other supplies to refit an additional two regiments.

To the initial question, there is the Alfred May uniform, which is made of blue grey and royal blue kersey. Its ID'd to the Carolinas Campaign, so not really "Western," but involving the remnants of units that had been out there.

-Craig Schneider

While reading some info on Benning's Brigade during the Chickamauga time period, I found this info and thought it relevant to this (old) discussion.

From http://home.comcast.net/~benningsbrigade/History.htm

“Sam”, Capt. Bird’s {Capt. Edgeworth Bird, 15th Ga.} slave, arrived at the brigade’s camp on August 23rd {1863}, along with Capt. H. W. Forbes’s slave… Besides receiving Sam, Bird also received and “issued to Regts several hundred pair each of jackets, shoes, and sundry other things,”{401} after which, again quoting Sorrel, the ranks “looked decidedly better.” {402} Zebulan Vance, North Carolina’s wartime governer, had a few weeks before donated 14,000 uniforms to the army as a whole. Most of these clothes went to Hood’s and McLaws’ divisions, despite the fact that there wasn’t a regiment of North Carolina troops in either division.{403}

401
E. Bird to S. Bird, August 23, 1863. Granite Farm Letters, ed Rozier

402
Sorrel, Recollections,p 175

403
Tucker, Chickamauga, p 86

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Mark,

So your post supports that this particular group received new "jackets, shoes and sundry other things"...but doesn't seem to support nor refute the use of B/G Kersey or Royal Blue fabric...right?

Paul B.

[marktaylor]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Paul,
That information was more related to the Longstreet's reissue pre-Chickamauga "NC" vs. "Richmond" argument in this thread. The author obviously found evidence that lead him to believe the issued items came from the state of NC. I have not seen/read the primary sources.

[Longbranch 1]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Lee, I did notice your well-placed comments about a certain author, as well. If perchance you happen to speak to Mr. Hunter again in the near future, please be sure to refrain from using the words "Glenn" and "Tucker". As I recall, mere mention of that name in his presence is generally followed with a most pained expression!

For those who may not have seen it, Dave's article "The Jacket That Almost Was" which graced the pages of CCG a few years ago, is an outstanding read.

In addition to Chickamauga, those blue-gray NC uniforms have also been "seen" everywhere from burning on the compound at Salisbury prison to on the backs of German POWs.

Rich Croxton

I have been chasing those German POWs (actually interned merchant seamen ) for a while. Found lots of apocryphal info, but no specific documentation. While at Warm/Hot Springs, NC, the detainees were pretty well regarded, and often found employment in the area, many working in the fields. I suppose it is just possible that IF those stores were still around, they MIGHT have been used as work clothing. All the pictoral evidence I have found unfortunately is of them in " Sunday Go To Meeting " attire.

Hoping Bob Williams will help on this question. Didn't Amsi Williams? draw his blue jacket from the stores at Greensboro at War's end? Can't seem to find that pic.

Thanks,
Kevin Ellis
26thNC

[Bob McDonald]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

The uniform of Pvt. Hugh Lawson Duncan, 39th GA Inf., consists of his blue-piped P. Tait, Limerick, Ireland (BG EAC) shell jacket and NC issue trousers. The former is essentially identical to that associated with Pvt. Gouge, Greensboro Hist. Soc. It's clear from the very light usage of Pvt. Duncan's uniform that he acquired both garments only shortly before he and the rest of the AOT were surrendered at the Bennett Farm.




BTW, the uniform items of Pvt. Amzi Leroy Williamson, 53rd NC Inf., consist of his NC issue shell jacket and matching forage cap, as worn by him when wounded near the Railroad Cut, Gettysburg, July 1, 1863.



More detailed info on each of these uniforms can be found by searching earlier A-C postings.


Cheers,

Bob McDonald

[roundshot]

Re: Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

Kevin: I believe you are confusing the Williamson and Lawson jackets.

Bob McDonald: See this thread and my posts numbers 8, 9, and 14 for support of English made clothing issued to the AOT post-Bentonville:http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...t=McLeansville

Mark: Glenn Tucker is the one who started the whole (erroneous) thing about the "Longstreet" English Uniforms coming from NC in the first place. He obviously misconstrued the timing of Vance's post-Chickamauga donations. This topic has been much discussed.

Here is an excellent blog on the whole deal: http://www.blueandgraymarching.com/a...stinguish.html