buttonhole thread colour

[daz]

Hi guys I'm busy handstitching,but what colour was the thread used on a federal greatcoat button holes???,this may seem a daft question.but....i would sooner get it right,i assume a blue that matches the fabric,but someone out there may know of something different

regards
Darran wilson
118th pennsylvania Volunteers (UK)
the Corncob Mess

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

I believe it was logwood-dyed cotton thread. This would appear to be a dark blue-gray to dark blue in color. However, as can be seen on originals, this color faded rather rapidly to brown.

Here is a great coat on the HA site from the Kurtz collection: http://historical.ha.com/common/view...5&Lot_No=57842

[David Fox]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

I'll second dark blue. On surviving specimens, this tends to have turned brown.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

Hi,

All the original Federal greatcoats, that I have seen, were sewn with logwood-dyed. Here is a link to a mounted service greatcoat, where you can see the color of the thread used. http://www.cjdaley.com/mountedovercoats.htm

Andrew

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

Here is a link to Dr. Ann E. Cordy's work examining thread color change on Federal Civil War uniforms: http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/article...24-01-004.html

This work dates to 1983, I think.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

Hallo!

From Chapter Ten of the U.S. Quartermaster Manual:

Great Coats for footmen
3 yards 9 inches of 6-4 sky blue kersey; 1 yard 12 inches of 3/4 heavy lining; 1 yard 9 inches of 7/8 unbleached drilling; 2 inches of 4-4 brown holland; 6 coat buttons, 6 vest buttons; 2 black hooks and eyes; 10 skeins of dark blue linen thread, No 30.

Great Coats for mounted men
4 yards 2 inches of 6-4 sky blue kersey; 1 yard 12 inches of 3/4 heavy lining; 1 yard 9 inches of 7/8 unbleached drilling; 2 inches of 4-4 brown holland; 13 coat buttons, 12 vest buttons; 2 black hooks and eyes; 13 skeins of dark blue linen thread, No 30.

In brief and to over-generalize...

The "ideal" was indigo dyed linen thread, however, in practice, indigo dyed cotton was substituted as was mordanted logwood dyed linen and cotton.

Curt

[PanzerJager]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

The thread would really depend on the coat you are copying if you want to be specific. I know of one unpublished thread analysis of union garment thread samples taken from numerous and varied union garments, including overcoats, where the findings showed the majority thread used in construction was s-twist linen thread. Again this was only one survey and some one else’s results could be totally different. I have seen examples of overcoats myself that used heavier thread for the button holes and a different size thread for the general construction, in turn I have also seen other examples that used the same size for everything so there really is no definite answer, it really can differ from coat to coat as mentioned above. If I was making an overcoat that wasn’t based off a specific surviving example, personally I would go with 2 ply, dark blue linen thread with an s-twist if you can find it.

Regards,

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

Hi All,

Be aware that Black thread given time and exposier to the Sun will turn Brown as well.

Don S

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

Hallo!

Correct...

Particularly iron mordanted logwood black...

Curt

[daz]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

Thanks chaps.some very useful information there,i would probavly go with the dk blue or logwood colours as they are the only one's i can source in the UK



thanks
Darran Wilson
118th Pennsylvania Volunteers
the Corncob Mess

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

Hi Curt,

I have been doing some experiments with all the known period coloured threads, Both Natural Dyed and Period Chemical Dyed.

Analign dyed thread goes med Brown to Tan being left out for 2-3 months in the direct sun & weather. The Logwood actually turns a very light tan to a almost cream/gray colour.

Rather than a sterile controled lab test, I wanted to leave the thread out in the natural environment, exposed to the elements, so the thread would encounter relativley the same conditions and substances that thread in a uniform would encounter.

I am currently writing an artical based on the experiments and will show both control samples and the final experiment samples. The article will hopefully be complete by March of 2009

Don S

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

Hi,

Don, I look forward to reading your article once it is complete.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

Hallo!

Thanks Herr Don!

It is always good when we test the Hinge Point of Our Collective Knowledge as well as our inferences and assumptions.

I have dabbled and experimented with some of these dyestuffs for the
18th century, with upwards of 14 years of sunlight and elements exposure in field use.

Curt
Who is old enough, or young enough, to remember when button hole thread had to be tan or brown beause original garments are often found with... tan or brown (color) thread. :)

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: buttonhole thread colour

Hallo!
Curt
Who is old enough, or young enough, to remember when buttonhole thread had to be tan or brown beause original garments are often found with... tan or brown (color) thread. :)

Hi Curt,

Thanks! I am looking forward to publishing the findings with photos .

Regarding the quote above. I remember when that info came out ( Boy Do I feel old ).

It was cutting edge for the time . It was also , If I remember corectly, when Butternut Tan wool was considderd one of the ultimate in CS clothing materiel

Don S