Shrinkage(canteen)

[musketbal]

Hi all,
I have cedar canteen made by Rapidan Canteen Co. Its about 18 years old. The quality is excellent. After taking it out of storage, the bands were loose due to shrinkage. Once I filled it with water again, the canteen expanded and the rings became tight . There were no leaks.The wood is split on both sides however.
Should I keep water in the canteen, and change it often to keep the canteen from further damage?

Thanks,
Brent Conner

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

Hallo!

Ah.. wet cooperage versus dry cooperage...

IMHO...

In theory, your canteen should have experienced it maximim "drying out" due to the initial "dry-out." (Depending upon how air or kiln dry the wood was
when it was made). It should not, shrink further.

However, I had a birch bark canoe that needed to be soaked to swell before every outting (and interesting enhanced understanding of why Indians kept their canoes sunk with rocks which is contrary to the old frontier myth that it was done to prevent theft...)

I have a cedar one I picked up at the Museum of the Confederacy in 1987that I have stored dry (as it should be) between events and over Winter that is still water-tight.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

Curt once said that the only difference in a wooden canteen and a wooden canteen 'kit' is water. Don't sweat the splits and don't put any wax in it.

This 18th century kag was made in advance of the Bicentennial. It hasn't been dry since.

[Bill]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

Hallo!


I have a cedar one I picked up at the Museum of the Confederacy in 1987that I have stored dry (as it should be) between events and over Winter that is still water-tight.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

Curt,

In this case, my mileage is varying a lot. If you have a cedar canteen that been allowed to dry out between events since 1987 and is still holding water, that is nothing short of amazing. I built canteens from kiln dried cedar and cherry. Expansion, when the wood gets wet, is what makes these canteens water tight. For some reason, the wood has a limited number of wetting and drying cycles before the wood stops expanding when wet. My theory is the pores in the wood finally gets blocked up by the minerals in the water. You also have the issue of the iron bands being stretched by the expanding wood. I've actually had the rivets holding the bands together shear off, the first time I filled a canteen, if I made the bands too tight. If you let the canteen dry out, the iron bands don't shrink back.

I would strongly recommend storing wood canteens filled with water between events. A little bleach will take care of the growing things that develop over time.

[chaplain]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I've seen 2 wooden canteens live about 8 years a piece (drying between events). But apparently, each had expanded and shrunk too many times so that they developed a crack on a drum side which prevented any further retention of water (or they were low quality, who knows). The canteen I'm using now was used briefly in the late 90s, then stored dry for 10 years. I've been keeping this one wet. I store it in a shower, empty it and refill it once a week. I figure the original soldiers kept it wet every day. But, I don't know how many canteens they went through...

[unclefrank]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I keep mine filled and stored in the fridge. I try to remember to swap out the water about once every other week. I would think that the cycles of drying and expanding when wet would stress the wood and cause cracks.

[PigPen]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I lost a very nice Doolin canteen due to storing it without water..

[Joe Walker]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I've owned a couple of Polifka's canteens. Nice work. My problem was that it would "rot" if kept filled with water over time. Wax may have helped. My first one I bought in 1988 (cherry wood) and it lasted about ten years. Sold it to a friend, he worked on it, and it last a couple of years longer!

Joe Walker

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

Brent!

Hey did we get canteens made from the same feller? Mine is cracked on one side, has been for 2+ years, and it's STILL holding water! You can see the crack running along with wood grain all the way across the side.

I bought a wood canteen from Joe Walker, used it for a while, let it dry out because I was worried it would rot. Well, the bands got loose, and I had the bright idea for tighnening the bands. It swelled up when soaked in water, looked great for a time, but it KEPT swelling, and then came out badly egg shaped!:cry_smile

The one that I have pictured I bought also from Joe Walker, (way back in 2000) and it's still going, inspite of the crack.

Kevin Dally

[chaplain]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I put wax in a wooden canteen once. But each time it dried and swelled, the wax would flake off and end up in my drinking water. I finally filled it with hot water and dumped every bit of that wax. I'll never do wax in a wooden canteen again. I only did it for minor leaks. but it wasn't worth it.

I've owned a couple of Polifka's canteens. Nice work. My problem was that it would "rot" if kept filled with water over time. Wax may have helped. My first one I bought in 1988 (cherry wood) and it lasted about ten years. Sold it to a friend, he worked on it, and it last a couple of years longer!

Joe Walker

[David Fox]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

This thread raises a couple questions regarding the 19th Century (and earlier) usage of wooden slab-sided canteens. I own an early 19th Century militia canteen, with the common greenish-blue milk paint. Construction is generally like the later Confederate Gardner. It's not cracked. Upon reflection, though I've handled some with the bands loosened, I don't recall any cracks on the faces of originals. Also, these were manufactured, stored, inventoried, and neglected year after year in armouries, awaiting a call. Is one to believe they were all stored filled with water? As for the Confederate canteens, one can presume they were not expected to last more than a year or so, being issued-out to see hard, immediate usage. However, I own an original Gardner, and after 145+ years, it's not cracked. Again, I can't recall seeing a cracked original, including the twenty or so at the Nashville show last month. If my recollections are generally correct, why do originals seem to hold up for a hundred and more years while replicas last just a few seasons?

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I'll have to double-check with a friend from the Warnell School at UGA, but I think he will back me up on the fact that old(er) growth wild wood is part of the answer. The original 18th century cateen copied above is as sound as the vintage reproduction. I have observed similar consistences (or inconsistencies) in American long rifle stocks; old and new.

This friend and I had a conversation a year ago about hog lagoon water being applied to tree farm trees and though the trees grew faster, the wood was pithier. The conversation quickly strayed to wood used in earlier architecture, building and furniture and the huge difference in the wood products used today.

I'll add some images of wood samples taken from the piering of an early local 18th century dwelling that may better illustrate the point.

[bhutton]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I have a Gardiner pattern reproductin, only a few years old that I stored dry, next event on canteen detail I filled it along with others and it leaked completly dry in a few minuites, during the event I filled it as often as I could and drank from every place I could get water. Finally on the 2nd day it held water once the wood had expanded. This had not happened before so I called up the distributor, (a reputable and well known sutler), of this fellows canteens. He told me to always store it full, use bleach or lemon juice in the water every now and then to clean it.

[David Fox]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

Brother Beall: Certainly the type of wood utilized in canteen making can account for some of the difference betwixt current manufacture canteens and those of the century-before-last. One reads of the difficulty Confederate agents had in obtaining good, aged (one presumes old growth) walnut for gunstock manufacture. Among other problems, such stands of wood apparently grew where dissatisfaction with the Confederacy was rampant and efforts to harvest and process wood made difficult. It's an irony that in the mostly-rural South, in 1865 Richmond Arsenal had sufficient metal parts finished and on hand to assemble tens-of-thousands of rifle-muskets...but no stocks. I have an 1864 Richmond rifle-musket. The wood is splint and otherwise demonstates usage of insufficiently cured wood. However, If gunstocks were improperly cured and cracked, why don't surviving Rebel wooden canteens demonstrate the same problem? And, again, is one to believe the many thousands of wooden canteens stored for many decades in the early half of the 19th Century were kept filled with water? Does old growth wood answer that question? Or is there perhaps something lost that was known by the Old Guys that modern canteen makers are unaware of?

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

As I stated, it could be part of the answer.