Shrinkage(canteen)

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I have a Gardiner pattern reproductin, only a few years old that I stored dry, next event on canteen detail I filled it along with others and it leaked completly dry in a few minuites, during the event I filled it as often as I could and drank from every place I could get water. Finally on the 2nd day it held water once the wood had expanded. This had not happened before so I called up the distributor, (a reputable and well known sutler), of this fellows canteens. He told me to always store it full, use bleach or lemon juice in the water every now and then to clean it.

Sam Doolin told me that a drop or two of bleach every water change is enough. Lemon juice is organic and will spoil.

William Wigham once recommend submerging a neglected canteen that had dried out. It was water tight again in hours.

[unclefrank]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

Sam Doolin told me that a drop or two of bleach every water change is enough. Lemon juice is organic and will spoil.

Star San sanitizer works very well too, and non toxic.

[Bill]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

However, If gunstocks were improperly cured and cracked, why don't surviving Rebel wooden canteens demonstrate the same problem? And, again, is one to believe the many thousands of wooden canteens stored for many decades in the early half of the 19th Century were kept filled with water? Does old growth wood answer that question? Or is there perhaps something lost that was known by the Old Guys that modern canteen makers are unaware of?

David,

You see some surviving canteens that do indeed have cracks and splits, but I agree, the vast majority of original canteens I've viewed were in pretty good shape. Although, most of them have shrunk up a lot. Of course, it may be that the only canteens that survived were the ones that didn't crack or split! :)

I also agree that canteens were stored for long periods in a dry state. By the same token, when the canteens were put in service, they were kept wet during that period of service. As I said in an earlier post, it seems most wood gets a certain number of wetting and drying cycles before it stops expanding when wet.

There is one major difference between lumber you buy today, compared to what was available 150 years ago. Today, most wood is kiln dried. Hardwood, like cherry is usually dried to 5% moisture content and allowed to stablize at the local humidity. When I was making canteens, I had to plan on the wood swelling more during the winter, since it started out drier.

In regard to your last question. That was something I asked myself about a thousand times. I always felt like I was trying to re-invent the wheel.

[Bill]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

Something more.

Many of the original canteens I've viewed were mass produced. The faces were lath turned and the staves were cut on moulding machines. (Or, made using special hand planes.) When you look closely, you can see the machine marks.

I would love to know what fixtures were used to put these canteens together, but I don't have a clue. (I came up with my own fixtures, but have no idea if the originals were made the same way I made my canteens.)

BTW, the quality of some of the originals left a lot to be desired. I viewed one canteen that had no groove cut in the back of the staves at all. The faces were just planed down to a knife edge and the staves were wrapped around the faces. One face on this canteen was stove in, so I could see how it was constructed. Funny, not many people, who own original canteens, are willing to allow you to take apart their canteen to view the internal construction. :)

[Mark Choate]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I hope y'all don't mind me reviving this thread as I have just acquired my first wooden canteen and have a question or two.

My new canteen is a Sam Doolin "Gardner". While I have seen comments on this thread about cedar and cherry wood and old growth vs. new growth wood, mine is brand new and made of ash. It is a beautiful piece of work, but when I put water in it for the first time it did have some leaking and seepage. That was about 15 hours ago and now, while the seepage is very slight, it is still there.

Question #1 How long does it take a new canteen to expand out fully and is it realistic to think that it will not seep/leak at all??

Question #2 Ash is a pretty hard wood and would it expand and contract at a different rate than cedar and/or cherry?

It would appear that most agree that wet storage is the right way to go, but any advice on the above questions from you "wooden canteen vets" out there would be appreciated.

thanks,
Mark

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

Ask Sam

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/member.php?11069-Doolin

[Mark Choate]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

Just sent him the question, Garrison. THank you a lot.

Mark

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

You are welcome Mark. Please let me know the outcome.

[Kace]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I am no chemist but do have an added thought as to why there might be a limited number wet dry cycles in a wood canteen. Modern tap water has a ton of misc chemicals and minerals in it that ye old well water of the time most likely did not. Two leading examples would be fluoride and chlorine. Would the interaction between these and the wood change things. For example I know that fluoride changes places with other minerals in the enamel of teeth to make them harder. (Just got back from taking my 7 yrld to the dentist.) Could a similar exchange in the wood fiber cells shorten the life of a modern wood canteen?

Kace

[Doolin]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I responded to Marks questions in a private message. Hope he received it. I personally am not convinced there is an issue of wet/dry "cycles" pertaining to wooden canteens, buckets, barrels, etc. Wood will swell when introduced to water and contract when drying from lack of water. There was some discussion about chemicals and such in our 21st century tap water and wood pores possibly being filled by same. 19th century well water and river/creek water would have contained a load of minerals also. I think it's basically a problem of keeping water inside. Wooden hull boats and ships work on the same principles but they are trying to keep water out. I would believe a soldier would get water as often as possible whether he had a wooden or tin canteen. The 15th Ala regretted not filling theirs prior to the assault on Little Round Top. Keep water in the wooden canteens. Sam Doolin

[Bill]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I hope y'all don't mind me reviving this thread as I have just acquired my first wooden canteen and have a question or two.


Question #1 How long does it take a new canteen to expand out fully and is it realistic to think that it will not seep/leak at all??

Question #2 Ash is a pretty hard wood and would it expand and contract at a different rate than cedar and/or cherry?

thanks,
Mark

Mark,

Congratulations, Sam makes a beautiful canteen.

In regard to your questions. A new canteen should swell up in a day, or two. Your canteen shouldn't leak, but it may well seep water right through the wood. You are dealing with a natural product and there is no way to insure a certain amount of water won't leach out over time. Some of the canteens I built never lost a drop, while others would go dry in a month, or two. I could never figure out the difference.

You are correct, different wood will expand and contract at different rates. I am sure Sam took that into consideration when he banded your canteen.

You don't have to worry about storing your canteen filled with water. Wet wood doesn't rot. It's the wetting and drying that causes wood to rot. Some of my canteens are ten or twelve years old and they are still going strong.

[Mark Choate]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

Thanks, Bill,

I have really received some excellent advice through this thread, both on the forum as well as some good p.m.'s. I am now on day three and it seems to be almost through with the "weeping".

Mark

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

Just put the water in it. At-least you know it will not rust....but on a serious note, I would not put the bleach in it, it will crack for sure.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

...but on a serious note, I would not put the bleach in it, it will crack for sure.

The canteen in reply # 3 of this thread has been both neglected and well cared for over its lifetime. Wet to bone dry many times. It has always had a drop or two of bleach added when emptied and refilled during storage. Thirty-six years later its as tight as a tick.

[Blair]

Re: Shrinkage(canteen)

I have found most cities water supply usually has more that enough bleach already added.
Well water... well, that maybe another matter altogether.
Un cured/processed water can be the cause of "slimmies" forming in wet cooperage over time. Bleach in really small quantities can resolve this effect. But, one can still taste and smell the bleach.
Alcohol can resolve the same issues of having to drink thick slimy or lumpy water. A good drinking alcohol like your favorite Whiskey or Bourbon etc,. Something 90 proof or better. One oz. to a canteen filled the rest of the way with water is a good start.
The alcohol content will evaporate out over some small amount of time but will leave the smell and taste of the booze behind.
Trust me on this, the effects are much more pleasurable. Even for those that may not normally like the taste of "hooch".