CSA wood canteens - authentication

[Bluehawk]

Reposted in this forum on advice of Moderator...

I know there are several questions at once here, but any information on any of those would be appreciated.
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Several years ago I purchased ($30) a replica CSA wood canteen from a barrelwright at Black Creek Village - a living history museum in Toronto. It is a very nicely made piece, with mortised staves having fitted side panels, well forged metal holding straps and sling loops, a carved plug, and has proven quite functional for the intended purpose. It came with a simple leather thong which I replaced by using a piece of leather horse halter tack w/silver buckle I picked up along the way.

The maker told me that such canteens were commonly made in Canada for CSA troops.

It most closely resembles what I believe would be called the "Gardner" variant of CSA canteens, although my example is not quite as finely formed and seems to be a tad thicker.

My piece measures 4" deep x 7 1/4" diameter, with approx. 2" sling loops.

I am as yet unable to present a photo, sorry.

In trying to gaze backward with this replica, I've come up with a number of questions related to the canteen and CSA canteens in general. I am not a dealer or buyer of CSA or Civil War militaria, nor am I a re-enactor - though might have been if I had gotten started long years ago. From 1980 thru 1995 or so I made a very serious book study of the CW, and amassed a substantial library (since forfeit in a divorce) on the topic.

If anyone could give some guidance on these questions, it would be much appreciated:

1. WERE there CSA canteens made in Canada? If so, for whom or where?

2. What might the slings of those have been made? I have seen illustrations showing everything from linen and cotton canvas/duck, to all kinds of leather, and even one example using web!

3. Did certain units or CSA states tend to equip their troops with canteens from particular manufacturers? If so, any examples?

4. Any idea of about how many types of CSA canteens there were? I've seen pictures of different metal ones, ones with 2 spouts, wide and skinny spouts, wood ones, ones with elaborate slings, ones with highly carved and crude plugs, ones with short and very long adjustable and not-adjustable slings, etc.

Any guidance or information would be greatly appreciated.

[Bluehawk]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

Part of the answer...

Link:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=190

[ley74]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

Try

Stephen Sylvia and Mike O'Donnells' book "Civil War Canteens" available from Moss Publications, PO Box 729, Orange County, Va. 22960.

Or contact the Publisher of North South Traders Civil War

http://www.nstcivilwar.com/cgi-bin/contact.asp

Stephen is the publisher.

[Jimmayo]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

Try

Stephen Sylvia and Mike O'Donnells' book "Civil War Canteens" available from Moss Publications, PO Box 729, Orange County, Va. 22960.

A note to the above post. The new canteen book is titled "U.S. Army & Militia CANTEENS 1775 - 1910". It does not contain the information on CS manufactured and issued canteens as the predecessor book "Civil War Canteens" as referenced in the previous post.

Don't get them mixed up as I believe the "Civil War Canteens" book is out of print and they may think you want the new book.

To answer part of your post. Wood canteens could have been locally made and issued to local militia units before they left their locality to where ever the transition from militia to the CS army was made. Many were also made on contract to the CS quartermaster and issued to various units based on need. I think it would be a stretch for the seller to make the statement "such canteens were commonly made in Canada for CSA troops." Not saying it was never done as I learned a long time ago to never say never, but it is very unlikely canteens would be imported from Canada since they could be made locally and not to mention the shipping cost.

[Bill]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

Mike,

You mentioned that your canteen was four inches thick. That's about an inch and a half thicker then the usual Gardner Pattern Canteen. By any chance, are there just two sling keepers, one on each side? If so, you may have an English Import Canteen. It would make sense that these canteens would be available in Canada.

These are the Civil War mystery canteens. There is evidence of their use, but very little documentation of their issue or how many were imported. There has been a lot of discussion of these canteens on this Forum.

[ley74]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

Jim:

Have you seen the newer book? Is it worth owning?

Regards,

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

Jim:

Have you seen the newer book? Is it worth owning?

Regards,

I bought an original Philadelphia made Bullseye Canteen at the Nashville relic Show (see photo attached)...the pewter spout has the incomplete J.HAL HRMAN. PHILAD stamped on it. Mike O’Donnell was there autographing the books as he was selling them, and I bought one from him.

The incomplete stamping left me wondering about the maker’s name, till I read the chapter about the Philadelphia Depot canteens. Joseph Hall Rohrman made, and contracted out a large number of these canteens. There is a good bit of info in this book about makers known to have produced canteens.

If your looking specifically for Confederate canteens, this book would not the one to get.

I'd say if anyone is interested in WBTS equipage, THIS book is a must!

Kevin Dally

[Jimmayo]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

Jim:

Have you seen the newer book? Is it worth owning?

Regards,

Right now I would consider it the Bible on US Canteens from 1775 to 1910. It is well researched and contains more information than most of us will ever want to know. I like canteens and found it worth the price but was somewhat disappointed that it only covered the militia and US canteens. Of course that leaves the door open for another book. It is also in hardback while Mike's other canteen books were paper back.

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

We talked to Mike O’Donnell at the show about doing a book on Confederate canteens, he made a comment about needing another lifetime of research to do one!

Kevin Dally

[Bluehawk]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

Mike,

You mentioned that your canteen was four inches thick. That's about an inch and a half thicker then the usual Gardner Pattern Canteen. By any chance, are there just two sling keepers, one on each side? If so, you may have an English Import Canteen. It would make sense that these canteens would be available in Canada.

These are the Civil War mystery canteens. There is evidence of their use, but very little documentation of their issue or how many were imported. There has been a lot of discussion of these canteens on this Forum.

There are, indeed, only two sling keepers on either side - which, if correct, are made of a thick wire stock, flattened ends tucked under the rims.

I was sure it wasn't a Gardner, but that was about as close as I could come in writing just to provide some idea of what this piece looks like. My replica is not nearly as modeled as a Gardner appears to be, the sides and slats being essentially flat.

I thank you for helping clear up this matter.

[Bluehawk]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

To answer part of your post. Wood canteens could have been locally made and issued to local militia units before they left their locality to where ever the transition from militia to the CS army was made. Many were also made on contract to the CS quartermaster and issued to various units based on need. I think it would be a stretch for the seller to make the statement "such canteens were commonly made in Canada for CSA troops." Not saying it was never done as I learned a long time ago to never say never, but it is very unlikely canteens would be imported from Canada since they could be made locally and not to mention the shipping cost.

I had the hunch you now verify as to locally made gear, and even CSA quartermaster supply possibilities... which is what made the barrelwright's statement to me, about these canteens being supplied from Canada to the CSA, something worth trying to understand.

I apologize for bringing the matter up again for discussion, as it has apparently been a topic in the past. But, being new here I wasn't able to decide from thread titles exactly where to begin.

Thank you for adding to solving my mystery canteen.

[Bill]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

Mike,

Every English canteen with an ACW association I've seen, has been marked with the British "Broad Arrow". One such canteen was picked up at Menchey's Spring, after the Gettysburg Battle; which suggests use by North Carolina troops. The 21st and 57th North Carolina moved through this area, during their attack on Cemetery Hill, on the evening of July 2nd.

The "Broad Arrow" marking would suggest these canteens were imported from England, not Canada. Although, when it comes to the English canteens, almost anything is possible.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

The "Broad Arrow" marking would suggest these canteens were imported from England, not Canada. Although, when it comes to the English canteens, almost anything is possible.

Considering that the area making up Canada, was a Colony of the Imperial British Empire ca. 1861-1865...I'm not quite sure the statement above fits...wouldn't it be entirely probable that "Canada" would have some supply of British Martial Equipment? And further, that if this supply was outdated, and available that it could possibly be shipped south?

I have no evidence to promote/debunk the theory that equipment was imported from Canada...but merely wanted to point out that the presence of a Broad Arrow on supplies suspected to have arrived from Canada, does not debunk that theory.

Paul B.

[Bill]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

[QUOTE=I have no evidence to promote/debunk the theory that equipment was imported from Canada...but merely wanted to point out that the presence of a Broad Arrow on supplies suspected to have arrived from Canada, does not debunk that theory.

Paul B.[/QUOTE]

Paul,

The man who sold the canteen to Mike stated they were made in Canada for export to the Confederacy. A canteen made for export, would be much like the Birmingham and London Enfields and have no British acceptance marks.

It is my guess these canteens were condemned British government property.

[Bluehawk]

Re: CSA wood canteens - authentication

Well, it certainly got my attention when the maker said that... and, given that he was a "re-enactor" of sorts, working as a barrelwright in a living history museum (Black Creek Pioneer Village, Toronto), there was a better than good chance he knew what he was talking about.

It was in November 1995, so something tells me he is no longer there.

I do appreciate these ideas being shared, very much.